What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

General discussion of all things Bloodborne

What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:43 pm

I haven't actually seen a thread like this, i have seen many critiques from numerous threads on what Bloodborne did right and what Bloodborne did wrong. I would like to create a consolidated discussion on specifically what everyone would do to improve Bloodborne, or if they are fine with it the way it is and want it to remain exactly the same.

For some reason From has yet to release a substantial patch to known issues with gameplay mechanics and balance for the past few months, i believe many are hoping that their efforts are being put into a quality DLC package, It's true that Bloodborne does suffer from many connection issues that Dark Souls did for it's initial release, that only lasted until the first patch. Bloodborne's issues have persisted many months after release.

I believe a community has come to a consensus on a few negatives to Bloodborne, those being:

-Parry mechanics

-Weapon selection

-Sidestep Evasion

-Connection with other players

-Ptheumerian chalice dungeon grind

-The imbalance of blood damage output to other builds

Saying what a finished work did wrong though is easy, i would rather see what everyone would do to improve those mechanics so that they could work, or removal of them altogether. I think everyone eventually has an epiphany while playing a game they love where you hear your inner voice say "I could do this better, wtf were they thinking?" and i want to see those thoughts here.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Tsmp » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:25 pm

Good point, it's probably better to have all such discussion in one place instead of scattered about the entire forum. Some interesting things have been said on the subject.

My first concern is how unbalanced Blood Gems seem to be in PvP, specifically Cursed Tempering Blood Gems (6) with their 27.2% increase to physical damage and a downside that doesn't apply against players. This results in weapons with incredible damage output and no real drawback, used against players who simply don't have that level of power. They're cursed items, so where's the curse?

The three "free" curses are "ATK vs beasts DOWN -xx%", "ATK vs the kin DOWN -xx%" and "stamina cost UP +xx%". Players count as neither beasts nor kin, and thus in PvP the weapons always get their full bonus and there are no instances where alternate gem types need even be considered. The +stamina cost gems are simply not severe enough to even be a problem, as the extra cost usually amounts to no more than one less attack, and in Bloodborne stamina costs in general are hardly a concern. Three +stamina cost gems can be negated with a single rune.

However, I don't think their positive effects need to be reduced, just that there just needs to be certain conditions where their negative effects apply when used against players. Which means there'd need to be some times where a player counts as a beast, and times when a player counts as a kin. For the +stamina curse, it's rather obvious that the penalty isn't steep enough. Each one of those gems should cost a whole attack, not three costing just barely one. With this, an entirely new layer is added to PvP: your opponent is using a weapon that you (correctly guess) is gemmed with -beast curses, so you do whatever it is that reclassifies you as a beast. Your opponent sees this, and switches to a saw cleaver that is gemmed with full Cursed Beasthunter gems, thus removing your brief advantage and putting you at a severe disadvantage. They probably have -kin curses, and you would switch to kin to take advantage of that, but you cannot as you are currently a beast. And also probably screwed. *EDIT: of course, if your beast effect were to wear off, then suddenly that saw cleaver would no longer gain any bonuses at all against you...

As to your own suggestions,

I don't think it's possible to change the parry mechanic to any significant degree without removing guns entirely or else nerfing bloodtinge to the point of uselessness, which would leave an awful lot of people very upset. I guess the easiest thing they could do is add a reload animation either after each shot, though if they did this then they'd have to make the riposte window longer as well or the reload animation relatively short so you could still land a visceral attack. I guess they could make it so you had to press the button again after firing to load a shot? Alternatively, add a very powerful +blood defense rune to mitigate bullet damage, or maybe a more specialized shield that also goes better with clothes than that ugly wooden one.

On the subject of Chalice Dungeons, I think they really need to focus on improving the Short Root Ritual Chalice. Right now it's basically useless for finding co-op or PvP due to how slow it is, and due to the nature of CD's it's basically necessary for keeping dungeons from being completely lifeless (or it would be, if it worked). If the SRRC were able to find matches quickly and reliable, then in theory any person could create a Sinister Root Dungeon, open it, and start pulling in invaders right there. Speaking of invading Chalice Dungeons, I think killing players in them ought to award people with gems. Which would you rather do to farm for gems, kill 3-4 bosses in a row for one chance at a really good gem, or kill players all day and find one along the way?
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:38 am

Tsmp wrote:I don't think it's possible to change the parry mechanic to any significant degree without removing guns entirely or else nerfing bloodtinge to the point of uselessness, which would leave an awful lot of people very upset. I guess the easiest thing they could do is add a reload animation either after each shot, though if they did this then they'd have to make the riposte window longer as well or the reload animation relatively short so you could still land a visceral attack. I guess they could make it so you had to press the button again after firing to load a shot? Alternatively, add a very powerful +blood defense rune to mitigate bullet damage, or maybe a more specialized shield that also goes better with clothes than that ugly wooden one.


Well i pretty much agree with your entire post, but i'm going to tackle this issue first.

I think parries can be fixed rather easily with a single patch. All they need to do is decrease range of ammunition on small firearms and add in a delay between shots. That sounds like it doesn't do much, but it would go a very long way, it may even make gun parries a skill you'd have to hone vs spam. The reduced range will force you to be in harms way to go for a parry and the delay between shots removes the spam ability and forces more accurate timing of shots. I don't think nerfing bloodtinge is the answer either, that build is a one trick pony at PvP ranges and the katanas trick mode has serious downsides, what really makes bloodtinge so strong right now is it's access to firearms and the amount of damage they can do while going for parries, they have all of this while also having one of the best weapons in the game at level 100.

I think this is one of the #1 things that needs a patch before anything else.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:30 am

Issues I see and how they can be fixed:

-Guns reload too quickly, so punishing missed shots is not easy, especially if your opponent fires again immediately afterward or dodges behind you. Increase the reload time afterward. Since this frame increases, the window for riposte must be made longer by the exact same time.
-Blood ATK is too high. With Evelyn dealing over 100 chip damage per shot, up to 400ish with an ashed direct hit, Chikage dealing upwards of 800 damage on its strongest attacks, and over 30% gems that can be collected for all 3 slots of any of the 3 blood weapons in the game, we're looking at huge advantages with few downsides. Bullets come at little cost, so these builds really aren't going to run out in a single pvp battle unless they are incredibly outmatched due to a lack of skill. Rather than nerf these weapons, Blood def needs to be increased for all players.
-Connectivity is low. It often takes a long time to connect with anyone, especially via the SRRC. I once let it sit to invade, ate lunch, came back, and didn't even get a chalice to spawn on the pedestal after 30 minutes. You're lucky to find a player to co-op. I think this is part of why activity has died down so much compared to the other Souls games. This fix is a no-brainer that they should have already checked off.
-While some may not agree, i think the way damage is calculated in this game is a little backwards. Moveset multipliers multiply AR before taking damage reductions into consideration. Weapons with high multipliers see very little damage mitigation than what you see on normal attacks with 1.0 modifiers on down. I think the multiplier should take effect after defense reductions so that smaller weapons don't have huge damage spikes based on which attack is used. This would help bring damage values down on a lot of the weapons that are considered borderline OP on up. Implementing this would mean that a small weapon won't do considerably more damage on a heavier attack than a normal attack. The last thing i like to see is a damn Stake Driver TF attack dealing just as much damage as my blunt Logwheel when they are in entirely different leagues.
-With regard to gem farming, it's far too tedious with rites adding gems to boss drop lists. Instead of this being the case, rites should entirely change the drop list. Cursed can stay the same and have the base drops, Rotted changes all gem drops to Adept, Fool, Poorman, Striking, Radiant, etc, Fetid changes all drops to Fire, Bolt, Arcane, Nourishing, Dirty, Murky, etc. This would not only increase the drop rates of specialty gems, but eliminate a lot of the gems that you may not be interested in.
-Give phantoms equal hp to hosts. OHKO's are never a good thing in these games. You get summoned to fight a host, you have 30% less hp. Can you OHKO them? Probably not. Can you heal as much as they can per vial? Absolutely not. Can you get OHKO'd with a visceral or lucky charged attack? Yep. This is an obvious fix that worked well in Dark Souls and should work well in BB. Right now, the only way to get hosts and phantoms to have equal hp values without large differences in vitality and runes is via a cursed dungeon, which is easy OHKO territory if you or your opponent runs top-tier gems and/or gets a counterhit or visceral (been there, done it, been on the winning side and the losing side). As I've said in all of the previous games, in a game where OHKO's are a factor, the victor is often the one that heals the most.
-Increase the parry window on heals a little. It's just a bit too tight and you can easily miss it due to latency. I just think they are a little too hard to punish without spamming your gun as soon as your opponent tries to get some distance.
-Decrease bullet stagger. Right now, you stagger when your opponent whiffs a parry and take damage. Lead elixir is the only way to work around this, but it's temporary. Most of what you see in pvp is QS r1's and bulletspam, which get really boring when each of our weapons has a much broader moveset to work with and no skillset is needed to succeed if you have a decent gun and can reliably stagger your opponent at every turn. Bullets should only stagger on a parry. The only exception is the Cannon, of course. This will bring about much faster and intuitive play. Lead elixir can be repurposed to reduce stagger from light weapon hits.
-Make the arcane side of BoM and BB worth using. It is far too easily mitigated by defs to even consider investing in. They barely are for the Logwheel unless you run pure Arc or nourishing gems and rev it. Even then, a pure physical version is probably going to out-perform the arcane setup.
-Boost arcane hunter's tool damage. It's pitiful that a spammy bullet can do much more damage than a slow-casting suicidal blast of tentacles.

This is all i can think of atm, but i think these changes would ultimately balance the game and give it much greater potential.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:46 am

Astrichthyes wrote:
-Guns reload too quickly, so punishing missed shots is not easy, especially if your opponent fires again immediately afterward or dodges behind you. Increase the reload time afterward. Since this frame increases, the window for riposte must be made longer by the exact same time.

-Increase the parry window on heals a little. It's just a bit too tight and you can easily miss it due to latency. I just think they are a little too hard to punish without spamming your gun as soon as your opponent tries to get some distance.
'

I feel like a major fix for parries is to simply reduce the range of guns and force a delay between shots. This doesn't even require a reload animation, simply add in a timer that prevents gun spam. This simple addition will go a very long way to balancing guns and parries, the range factor will force players to be in a punishable range when spamming their shots.

Healing on the other hand is a different animal, and the reason it's as overpowered as it is, is due to the fact that dodging is far too quick and overpowered, this is something else that i feel needs patching, but i honestly do not know how to go about fixing it. I feel dodging has essentially made mostly everything PvP too difficult to punish

Astrichthyes wrote:-Blood ATK is too high. With Evelyn dealing over 100 chip damage per shot, up to 400ish with an ashed direct hit, Chikage dealing upwards of 800 damage on its strongest attacks, and over 30% gems that can be collected for all 3 slots of any of the 3 blood weapons in the game, we're looking at huge advantages with few downsides. Bullets come at little cost, so these builds really aren't going to run out in a single pvp battle unless they are incredibly outmatched due to a lack of skill. Rather than nerf these weapons, Blood def needs to be increased for all players.


This i agree with completely, Blood is simply ridiculous in terms of damage output, but so is everyone with top tier gems. I do not feel the problem is Blood so much as it is tertiary issues with the game itself. Guns are overpowered and gems amplify damage output to ridiculous levels. It's just that for blood that damage increase is the highest out of all other builds, bloodtinge can be easily fixed by balancing gem damage output and the way guns operate at which point bloodtinge would just become a build that uses the chikage, a weapon that has downsides to its benefits and is balanced on it's own.

The rest of your post is pretty much spot on, i'm beginning to wonder if we are ever going to get a patch at this rate though, which is disheartening because i really gave the game a fair chance and it turned out to be enjoyable. There is something there for PvP and minor fixes could bring it in line with the rest of souls, but at the end of the day it has the least balanced PvP in the series.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:18 am

Magicisoverrated wrote: I feel like a major fix for parries is to simply reduce the range of guns and force a delay between shots. This doesn't even require a reload animation, simply add in a timer that prevents gun spam. This simple addition will go a very long way to balancing guns and parries, the range factor will force players to be in a punishable range when spamming their shots.

Healing on the other hand is a different animal, and the reason it's as overpowered as it is, is due to the fact that dodging is far too quick and overpowered, this is something else that i feel needs patching, but i honestly do not know how to go about fixing it. I feel dodging has essentially made mostly everything PvP too difficult to punish

Astrichthyes wrote:-Blood ATK is too high. With Evelyn dealing over 100 chip damage per shot, up to 400ish with an ashed direct hit, Chikage dealing upwards of 800 damage on its strongest attacks, and over 30% gems that can be collected for all 3 slots of any of the 3 blood weapons in the game, we're looking at huge advantages with few downsides. Bullets come at little cost, so these builds really aren't going to run out in a single pvp battle unless they are incredibly outmatched due to a lack of skill. Rather than nerf these weapons, Blood def needs to be increased for all players.


This i agree with completely, Blood is simply ridiculous in terms of damage output, but so is everyone with top tier gems. I do not feel the problem is Blood so much as it is tertiary issues with the game itself. Guns are overpowered and gems amplify damage output to ridiculous levels. It's just that for blood that damage increase is the highest out of all other builds, bloodtinge can be easily fixed by balancing gem damage output and the way guns operate at which point bloodtinge would just become a build that uses the chikage, a weapon that has downsides to its benefits and is balanced on it's own.

The rest of your post is pretty much spot on, i'm beginning to wonder if we are ever going to get a patch at this rate though, which is disheartening because i really gave the game a fair chance and it turned out to be enjoyable. There is something there for PvP and minor fixes could bring it in line with the rest of souls, but at the end of the day it has the least balanced PvP in the series.


I don't think reducing range is necessary or wise. It would actually make it a lot harder to punish heals, which would be absolutely TERRIBLE because your opponent can easily dodge out of gun range and heal up before you get close enough and get a bullet to connect. Reducing gun damage significantly on ranged shots would be good to keep players from abusing chip damage on guns though. Forcing a delay between shots would definitely help too. As it is, a lot of players will simply spam their gun when you're out of their reach or below 20% health. I think dodges are perfectly fine the way they are, but forcing a stationary reload time instead of a cooldown time between shots would make firing your gun more risky and more strategic. There's little risk in firing your gun off and dodging away immediately afterward, so adding a reload time after the shot would kill 2 birds with 1 stone: make missed shots/parries more punishable and slow them down so they cannot be used rapid fire.

Gems were not completely thought through in their potency. I don't think From considered the fact that the curses would be so easy to circumnavigate. I do think that changing the damage calculation in the way I described would reduce the effects of the top-tier gems, thereby bringing them down to more reasonable levels. You won't have a 1.5x modified attack dealing double the damage of a 1.0x attack. Ex. 1000AR with a 1.5x modifier vs 200 def and no armor would deal about 1.5(0.9*1000)-0.5*200 = 1250 damage the way it is now, but the method i propose would cause that attack to deal 1.5(0.9*1000-0.5*200) = 1200. Not a huge decrease, but you won't see many weapons in the game with 1000 AR and a 1.5x attack modifier, barring Kirk, Wheel, and LHB at relatively high levels and using Adept gems. Now, let's say the same weapon has a 0.8x modifier. The current method would result in 620 damage and my method would result in 640 damage. This is an extreme example with such high AR's, so defs aren't very significant. Let's consider a 400AR weapon with a 1.1 modifier. The current method would result in 296 damage and my method would result in 286. So, essentially, my slight relocation of a single parenthesis tightens the range of potential damage values on any given weapon. Not by any considerable amount, but it should be a step in the right direction. You see more dramatic effects when you include direct hit bonuses and armor mitigation.

I don't know if we will get a patch. It seems as if From is already so focused on DkS3. They didn't work closely enough with FP to make the printed guide accurate and comprehensive and they didn't work with them to make sure the digital guide got released in a fair time frame. We don't even know if the digital guide is going to have any additional or relevant information in it that we don't already know besides maybe a few behind-the-scenes factoids. While this is my personal opinion, I think a fair number of players can agree that From really needs to get this game fixed-up or they'll gradually lose a large amount of their fan base. DkS had issues from day 1, some of which were never resolved. DkS2 had issues from day 1, some of which were never resolved. Both had disappointing mechanics that made them frustrating to pvp in, the former being terrible backstab mechanics and the latter being soul memory. BB was their flagship into the newest generation of consoles, just as DeS was before it, and was a sort of promise that From would be working harder to maintain balance and they aren't following up... yet. Any apathy they have for addressing issues with their product is a clear indicator that they aren't learning from their mistakes or taking their customers seriously. Many of the fixes they have implemented in their games have been based on player opinions, which is understandable from a marketing standpoint. What i would like to see from them is an in-depth examination and implementation of fairness and balance that transcends the opinions of simpletons that are going to drop the game after a month or two of trolling upon the release of the base game and any DLC it may have. It would not only make the game more enjoyable, but increase its longevity significantly.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:22 am

Astrichthyes wrote:
I don't think reducing range is necessary or wise. It would actually make it a lot harder to punish heals, which would be absolutely TERRIBLE because your opponent can easily dodge out of gun range and heal up before you get close enough and get a bullet to connect. Reducing gun damage significantly on ranged shots would be good to keep players from abusing chip damage on guns though. Forcing a delay between shots would definitely help too. As it is, a lot of players will simply spam their gun when you're out of their reach or below 20% health. I think dodges are perfectly fine the way they are, but forcing a stationary reload time instead of a cooldown time between shots would make firing your gun more risky and more strategic. There's little risk in firing your gun off and dodging away immediately afterward, so adding a reload time after the shot would kill 2 birds with 1 stone: make missed shots/parries more punishable and slow them down so they cannot be used rapid fire.


Fair enough, i suppose i was looking at things purely from a dueling standpoint and didn't take into consideration casual PvP encounters, or against those who do not care for dueling and are only there to kill you in an invasion, in which case yes, gun counters are the way to go vs healing spam. However, i can't agree that evasions aren't a problem, they are extremely spammy and while the iframe count is not rediculous like it was in DKS2, the sidestep mechanic allows for a much more haphazard approach to combat that allows heal spammers to quickly slip away or continually evade until they can drop a blood vial, it's annoying and when a player can do it for a good minute and then pop you on your first attempt to heal after forcing them to heal 5 times and kill you with a single visceral attack it only adds insult and it comes off as incredibly trollish.

Astrichthyes wrote:Gems were not completely thought through in their potency. I don't think From considered the fact that the curses would be so easy to circumnavigate. I do think that changing the damage calculation in the way I described would reduce the effects of the top-tier gems, thereby bringing them down to more reasonable levels. You won't have a 1.5x modified attack dealing double the damage of a 1.0x attack. Ex. 1000AR with a 1.5x modifier vs 200 def and no armor would deal about 1.5(0.9*1000)-0.5*200 = 1250 damage the way it is now, but the method i propose would cause that attack to deal 1.5(0.9*1000-0.5*200) = 1200. Not a huge decrease, but you won't see many weapons in the game with 1000 AR and a 1.5x attack modifier, barring Kirk, Wheel, and LHB at relatively high levels and using Adept gems. Now, let's say the same weapon has a 0.8x modifier. The current method would result in 620 damage and my method would result in 640 damage. This is an extreme example with such high AR's, so defs aren't very significant. Let's consider a 400AR weapon with a 1.1 modifier. The current method would result in 296 damage and my method would result in 286. So, essentially, my slight relocation of a single parenthesis tightens the range of potential damage values on any given weapon. Not by any considerable amount, but it should be a step in the right direction. You see more dramatic effects when you include direct hit bonuses and armor mitigation.


I see that, and when you catch ways to optimize the equations behind the game like this it makes me wonder just how much effort and play testing actually went into the games creation. A couple players and some brainstorming have come up with more balance than an entire team of well payed game developers could. The math is hard to argue though and I've enjoyed reading your thread on logwheel, it's interesting and shows lack of communication between the games programming and implementation.

Astrichthyes wrote:I don't know if we will get a patch. It seems as if From is already so focused on DkS3. They didn't work closely enough with FP to make the printed guide accurate and comprehensive and they didn't work with them to make sure the digital guide got released in a fair time frame. We don't even know if the digital guide is going to have any additional or relevant information in it that we don't already know besides maybe a few behind-the-scenes factoids. While this is my personal opinion, I think a fair number of players can agree that From really needs to get this game fixed-up or they'll gradually lose a large amount of their fan base. DkS had issues from day 1, some of which were never resolved. DkS2 had issues from day 1, some of which were never resolved. Both had disappointing mechanics that made them frustrating to pvp in, the former being terrible backstab mechanics and the latter being soul memory. BB was their flagship into the newest generation of consoles, just as DeS was before it, and was a sort of promise that From would be working harder to maintain balance and they aren't following up... yet. Any apathy they have for addressing issues with their product is a clear indicator that they aren't learning from their mistakes or taking their customers seriously. Many of the fixes they have implemented in their games have been based on player opinions, which is understandable from a marketing standpoint. What i would like to see from them is an in-depth examination and implementation of fairness and balance that transcends the opinions of simpletons that are going to drop the game after a month or two of trolling upon the release of the base game and any DLC it may have. It would not only make the game more enjoyable, but increase its longevity significantly.


The guide from what I've seen is an inaccurate joke, but it's no more than i expected as the era of game guides being a source of any useful information in the face of player created online wikis, such as this one wherein players can collaborate and test the game mechanics on a scale that a game guide company simply cannot provide in an efficient fashion renders them useless. Still, that is why From is supposed to feed accurate information to the guide, but it would appear they have not.

The rest is spot on. Fixes to the game should take player concern into account, but it should not cater to players every whim and desire. Instead real play testing should be involved and a real care for game balance should be put into the game. But it appears From isn't patching the game at all, they have seemingly dropped the project completely and haven't released a patch to even fix known flaws since the games release. It's sad and it's starting to remind me of Armored Core a little bit, i don't know if it's Miyazaki at this moment or From's business model, but i can sense a hubris waiting to be smashed with the souls series if they continue this apathetic standpoint.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Tsmp » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:07 am

On the plus side, it's obvious what the major issues are so the odds of the next patch addressing them might be pretty good. I'm sure the DLC will come with a balance patch just like all the others did, so we have at least one more in the future.

Odd though it may seem, Futurepress's guidebook for Bloodborne was actually really good as far as guides go. It's just that these games have such a devoted following willing to plunge them to such extreme depths that they simply can't keep up, not to mention the error of trying to release a day 1 physical guide for a game that was inevitably going to be patched several times over the next couple months, as they very well knew themselves. I still remember the Prima guides for Pokemon games, with all their countless inaccuracies and terrible, terrible advice...
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:06 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:Fair enough, i suppose i was looking at things purely from a dueling standpoint and didn't take into consideration casual PvP encounters, or against those who do not care for dueling and are only there to kill you in an invasion, in which case yes, gun counters are the way to go vs healing spam. However, i can't agree that evasions aren't a problem, they are extremely spammy and while the iframe count is not rediculous like it was in DKS2, the sidestep mechanic allows for a much more haphazard approach to combat that allows heal spammers to quickly slip away or continually evade until they can drop a blood vial, it's annoying and when a player can do it for a good minute and then pop you on your first attempt to heal after forcing them to heal 5 times and kill you with a single visceral attack it only adds insult and it comes off as incredibly trollish.

Astrichthyes wrote:Gems were not completely thought through in their potency. I don't think From considered the fact that the curses would be so easy to circumnavigate. I do think that changing the damage calculation in the way I described would reduce the effects of the top-tier gems, thereby bringing them down to more reasonable levels. You won't have a 1.5x modified attack dealing double the damage of a 1.0x attack. Ex. 1000AR with a 1.5x modifier vs 200 def and no armor would deal about 1.5(0.9*1000)-0.5*200 = 1250 damage the way it is now, but the method i propose would cause that attack to deal 1.5(0.9*1000-0.5*200) = 1200. Not a huge decrease, but you won't see many weapons in the game with 1000 AR and a 1.5x attack modifier, barring Kirk, Wheel, and LHB at relatively high levels and using Adept gems. Now, let's say the same weapon has a 0.8x modifier. The current method would result in 620 damage and my method would result in 640 damage. This is an extreme example with such high AR's, so defs aren't very significant. Let's consider a 400AR weapon with a 1.1 modifier. The current method would result in 296 damage and my method would result in 286. So, essentially, my slight relocation of a single parenthesis tightens the range of potential damage values on any given weapon. Not by any considerable amount, but it should be a step in the right direction. You see more dramatic effects when you include direct hit bonuses and armor mitigation.


I see that, and when you catch ways to optimize the equations behind the game like this it makes me wonder just how much effort and play testing actually went into the games creation. A couple players and some brainstorming have come up with more balance than an entire team of well payed game developers could. The math is hard to argue though and I've enjoyed reading your thread on logwheel, it's interesting and shows lack of communication between the games programming and implementation.

The guide from what I've seen is an inaccurate joke, but it's no more than i expected as the era of game guides being a source of any useful information in the face of player created online wikis, such as this one wherein players can collaborate and test the game mechanics on a scale that a game guide company simply cannot provide in an efficient fashion renders them useless. Still, that is why From is supposed to feed accurate information to the guide, but it would appear they have not.

The rest is spot on. Fixes to the game should take player concern into account, but it should not cater to players every whim and desire. Instead real play testing should be involved and a real care for game balance should be put into the game. But it appears From isn't patching the game at all, they have seemingly dropped the project completely and haven't released a patch to even fix known flaws since the games release. It's sad and it's starting to remind me of Armored Core a little bit, i don't know if it's Miyazaki at this moment or From's business model, but i can sense a hubris waiting to be smashed with the souls series if they continue this apathetic standpoint.

The wisest thing From can do at this point is scramble and make up for any shortcomings. I don't expect the game to be absolutely perfect on release, but I expect it to be flawless within a couple of months due to game testing and patches. All of this discussion makes me think that From should hire players like us who will examine the game's every detail, but who think in an objective and proactive fashion. They're so close to the project that they cannot make these calls themselves, nor do they seem to have an instinctual sense of balance because many of them probably don't play the games they helped to create or don't want to create perfect balance in pvp for personal reasons. That said, I don't personally think From would hire anyone who isn't Japanese, nor would they take even the most experienced of us on as a consultant. We could start our own game company :lol: That'd be a riot, but I wouldn't doubt that we'd be the first game company to stay in close contact with the community as members of a forum like this. Adding that personal dynamic would likely set the tone for other game companies to become more personal with their fan-bases. Since we have so much experience with the kind of games we'd want to make and a deep understanding of balance, i'm sure we could create a game as good as Demon's Souls if given the resources and technical expertise necessary for such a project.

I digress. I do find the ease of passive play annoying. There really isn't any way to catch your opponent if they wanna play keepaway except MAYBE the hunter's bone, which is not available to a lot of refined builds at sl100 without sacrificing for it. That's why I think the buffs on the Logwheel are useless. Your opponent will have no incentive to fight you while you have a rev going and will have no problem avoiding you until you cancel it or it disperses. Meanwhile, you lose hp. Even if you use HB, it may still not be enough to actually catch an evading foe. I'm not sure how to solve this problem without affecting balance everywhere else except removing the arcane stat req on the HB and lowering the cost from the 5 bullets it currently sits at. Doing this would give it more utility.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Vumsy » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:35 am

- I'd tie Item Discovery to Insight, rather than Arcane.
- I'd make Campaign enemies occationally drop Chalice Materials based on main game progress/ng+ cycles.
- I'd make the next story chalice dungeon tier than the one currently in your possession available for purchase at insight bath.
- I'd tweak Hunter Oath Rune to exclusively pair players for PvP, with password match-making and no HP penalty. (Or another item like this)
- I'd make bell maidens appear whenever someone uses Sinister Bells regardless of area boss defeated.
- I'd give Vilebloods the increased Vial heal currently held by Executioners. (No change to Executioners Rune)
- I'd tweak Bonemarrow Ashe to work "as if one had 50 bloodtinge" meaning no damage increase when you have 50+ bt, major damage increase when you have 8 bt.
- I'd make guns trigger a universal 0,75 second counterhit window after a shot. (Missing a Ludwig Rifle shot shouldn't be as punishable as an Evelyn/Hunter Pistol Shot)
- I'd nerf gems damage output to other players by 30%.
- I'd fix Reiterpallasch's interaction with Arcane Gems.
- I'd buff Ludwigs and Kirkhammers weapon multipliers by 0.25.
- I'd buff Logarius' Wheels multipliers by 0.35.
- I'd buff Beast Claws scalings to B/C.


- I'd make Chikage Hunter have a 10% chance at spawning somewhere in your current area every 5 minutes, cutting access to lamps, being there upon exiting and reloading the game and relentlessly hunt you down unless killed by you or terrain. :twisted:
If I can think of anything else I'll post it I guess.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:47 am

Vumsy wrote:1) I'd tie Item Discovery to Insight, rather than Arcane.
2) I'd make Campaign enemies occationally drop Chalice Materials based on main game progress/ng+ cycles.
3) I'd make the next story chalice dungeon tier than the one currently in your possession available for purchase at insight bath.
4) I'd tweak Hunter Oath Rune to exclusively pair players for PvP, with password match-making and no HP penalty. (Or another item like this)
5) I'd make bell maidens appear whenever someone uses Sinister Bells regardless of area boss defeated.
6) I'd give Vilebloods the increased Vial heal currently held by Executioners. (No change to Executioners Rune)
7) I'd tweak Bonemarrow Ashe to work "as if one had 50 bloodtinge" meaning no damage increase when you have 50+ bt, major damage increase when you have 8 bt.
8) I'd make guns trigger a universal 0,75 second counterhit window after a shot. (Missing a Ludwig Rifle shot shouldn't be as punishable as an Evelyn/Hunter Pistol Shot)
9) I'd nerf gems damage output to other players by 30%.
10) I'd fix Reiterpallasch's interaction with Arcane Gems.
11) I'd buff Ludwigs and Kirkhammers weapon multipliers by 0.25.
12) I'd buff Logarius' Wheels multipliers by 0.35.
13) I'd buff Beast Claws scalings to B/C.


14) I'd make Chikage Hunter have a 10% chance at spawning somewhere in your current area every 5 minutes, cutting access to lamps, being there upon exiting and reloading the game and relentlessly hunt you down unless killed by you or terrain. :twisted:
If I can think of anything else I'll post it I guess.

I numbered everything in the quote to simplify my response:
1-8) I agree
9) I don't know if the 30% gem nerf is how to go about this. I think they just need to tinker with the damage formula for pvp. Right now, they have defense reductions taking place after all multipliers, but they will actually make the game better by having the reductions before the multipliers. AR multipliers become damage multipliers, resulting in higher lows and lower highs for all weapons. As I've said before, it wouldn't do much, but it would help the current dilemma with damage spikes. We're not even considering the fact that SL 100 may not be where things balance out for pvp because defs continue to increase with levels at a steady rate until about 150 AFAIK. Even stopping the percent gems from multiplying together would be a significant change and would actually give the scaling gems a fair chance at being useful.
10) I have no opinion on this whatsoever, as I've never used this weapon.
11) Buff Kirk and LHB? I'm rather shocked. Their damage has always been pretty good to me, but I do think that the smaller weapons are proportionally too powerful. A counterhit with a light weapon should not deal more damage than a regular hit from a heavy weapon. If anything, I would consider lowering the base damage values of the smaller weapons so that they cannot deal such high damage. It's crazy when a small weapon takes almost half of your hp and your large weapon deals a chip more in damage per hit. Just the other day, I saw a Reiter take a bigger chunk out of my hp than my blunt wheel did to them. With such a fast weapon against one of the slowest weapons, that's pretty scary.
12) I absolutely believe the Logwheel needs a bit of a buff. It has pretty high reqs at 20/12/10. The only other weapon that compares is the Cannon at 30/13, but it requires 2 stats instead of 3. It's also in the heaviest class of weapons and is arguably one of the slowest in the game with the least range of the 3 heavy hitters.
13) I have never seen the BC in pvp, so I cannot give an opinion on this.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Vumsy » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:04 am

I dunno I just feel 27,2's does 30% too much damage... :|
The Kirk LHB buff is mostly to bring their shortsword damage up to par with other weapons, this require a damage buff to their transformed state but given their moveset I find it forgivable.
Problem with Beastclaw is simply poor scaling, it's modifiers are good as well as base damage, given the speed of the weapon.

I kinda ordered my desires according to what I'd expect to cause the least/most controversy. "1-8 agree" makes it seem as if my predictions weren't off.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:04 pm

Vumsy wrote:I dunno I just feel 27,2's does 30% too much damage... :|
The Kirk LHB buff is mostly to bring their shortsword damage up to par with other weapons, this require a damage buff to their transformed state but given their moveset I find it forgivable.
Problem with Beastclaw is simply poor scaling, it's modifiers are good as well as base damage, given the speed of the weapon.

I kinda ordered my desires according to what I'd expect to cause the least/most controversy. "1-8 agree" makes it seem as if my predictions weren't off.

Perhaps you are right about the gems. The current multiplication system of percent gems is part of what is making them seem out of line. 3 27.2% gems multiply to 2.058x AR, but would add to 1.816x. Making this change would, however, have drastic effects on gems such as Nourishing. A Nourishing Logwheel would be too weak to even consider, which would force them to buff it. Any changes you make to the gem system will affect pve as well. I don't personally think the power of most weapons in pve is bad where it is, so my alternative is to change the damage formula for pvp:

M=moveset modifier
D=natural defense
A=armor def
R=Attack rating

M[1-(A/1000)](0.9R - 0.6D)
Now, with the original system we already have, a 1000AR weapon with a 1.1x modifier against a player with 200 NDef and 200ADef would deal approximately 692 damage. With my proposed system, it would deal approximately 686, which isn't much of a difference. A 300AR weapon with the same conditions would deal 157 and 132 respectively, which is a more noticeable difference than there was with the higher AR setup. Now, this is just an example, but you could multiply the def even higher if you wanted to and it would intuitively counter lower AR weapons more than it would higher AR weapons, bringing them more proportionally into line and leaving the heavies at the top, as it should be.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:42 pm

Vumsy wrote:- I'd tie Item Discovery to Insight, rather than Arcane.
- I'd make Campaign enemies occationally drop Chalice Materials based on main game progress/ng+ cycles.
- I'd make the next story chalice dungeon tier than the one currently in your possession available for purchase at insight bath.
- I'd tweak Hunter Oath Rune to exclusively pair players for PvP, with password match-making and no HP penalty. (Or another item like this)
- I'd make bell maidens appear whenever someone uses Sinister Bells regardless of area boss defeated.
- I'd give Vilebloods the increased Vial heal currently held by Executioners. (No change to Executioners Rune)
- I'd tweak Bonemarrow Ashe to work "as if one had 50 bloodtinge" meaning no damage increase when you have 50+ bt, major damage increase when you have 8 bt.
- I'd make guns trigger a universal 0,75 second counterhit window after a shot. (Missing a Ludwig Rifle shot shouldn't be as punishable as an Evelyn/Hunter Pistol Shot)
- I'd nerf gems damage output to other players by 30%.
- I'd fix Reiterpallasch's interaction with Arcane Gems.
- I'd buff Ludwigs and Kirkhammers weapon multipliers by 0.25.
- I'd buff Logarius' Wheels multipliers by 0.35.
- I'd buff Beast Claws scalings to B/C.


- I'd make Chikage Hunter have a 10% chance at spawning somewhere in your current area every 5 minutes, cutting access to lamps, being there upon exiting and reloading the game and relentlessly hunt you down unless killed by you or terrain. :twisted:
If I can think of anything else I'll post it I guess.

I'm actually thinking that, so that bone marrow ash doesn't becomes completely useless after 50BT, it increases your gun scaling as if you had 99BT, but does not actually increase the stat itself. I can see a problem occurring where they make the mistake of it actually increasing the stat and making chikage deal the damage in place of the gun, but if they worked it in so that only the firearm was affected, it would actually bring ashed cannon, Evelyn, and repeater down to reasonable damage levels and work the way the item is supposed to according to the description. The scaling bonus for the arcane firearms would be treated as if you had 99arc. To retain the bonus that the item is supposed to f
give, you can add a 10% bonus on the damage. At high levels, the item is trivial. At lower levels, it becomes quite powerful, but not too powerful that you can destroy your opponent like you can with current conditions (cannon, primarily).
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:24 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:
Vumsy wrote:- I'd tie Item Discovery to Insight, rather than Arcane.
- I'd make Campaign enemies occationally drop Chalice Materials based on main game progress/ng+ cycles.
- I'd make the next story chalice dungeon tier than the one currently in your possession available for purchase at insight bath.
- I'd tweak Hunter Oath Rune to exclusively pair players for PvP, with password match-making and no HP penalty. (Or another item like this)
- I'd make bell maidens appear whenever someone uses Sinister Bells regardless of area boss defeated.
- I'd give Vilebloods the increased Vial heal currently held by Executioners. (No change to Executioners Rune)
- I'd tweak Bonemarrow Ashe to work "as if one had 50 bloodtinge" meaning no damage increase when you have 50+ bt, major damage increase when you have 8 bt.
- I'd make guns trigger a universal 0,75 second counterhit window after a shot. (Missing a Ludwig Rifle shot shouldn't be as punishable as an Evelyn/Hunter Pistol Shot)
- I'd nerf gems damage output to other players by 30%.
- I'd fix Reiterpallasch's interaction with Arcane Gems.
- I'd buff Ludwigs and Kirkhammers weapon multipliers by 0.25.
- I'd buff Logarius' Wheels multipliers by 0.35.
- I'd buff Beast Claws scalings to B/C.


- I'd make Chikage Hunter have a 10% chance at spawning somewhere in your current area every 5 minutes, cutting access to lamps, being there upon exiting and reloading the game and relentlessly hunt you down unless killed by you or terrain. :twisted:
If I can think of anything else I'll post it I guess.

I'm actually thinking that, so that bone marrow ash doesn't becomes completely useless after 50BT, it increases your gun scaling as if you had 99BT, but does not actually increase the stat itself. I can see a problem occurring where they make the mistake of it actually increasing the stat and making chikage deal the damage in place of the gun, but if they worked it in so that only the firearm was affected, it would actually bring ashed cannon, Evelyn, and repeater down to reasonable damage levels and work the way the item is supposed to according to the description. The scaling bonus for the arcane firearms would be treated as if you had 99arc. To retain the bonus that the item is supposed to f
give, you can add a 10% bonus on the damage. At high levels, the item is trivial. At lower levels, it becomes quite powerful, but not too powerful that you can destroy your opponent like you can with current conditions (cannon, primarily).

Arcane firearms? To the best of my knowledge, you can't have scaling arcane, fire, or bolt damage on bullets. You can add flat damage to them, but no matter what the bullet's damage and scaling type remain blood.

And now I want a gun that shoots arcane bolts of energy.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:59 pm

Tsmp wrote:Arcane firearms? To the best of my knowledge, you can't have scaling arcane, fire, or bolt damage on bullets. You can add flat damage to them, but no matter what the bullet's damage and scaling type remain blood.

And now I want a gun that shoots arcane bolts of energy.

Flamesprayer and Rosemarinus
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Tsmp » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:14 am

Astrichthyes wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Arcane firearms? To the best of my knowledge, you can't have scaling arcane, fire, or bolt damage on bullets. You can add flat damage to them, but no matter what the bullet's damage and scaling type remain blood.

And now I want a gun that shoots arcane bolts of energy.

Flamesprayer and Rosemarinus

Oh, duh.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:30 pm

As far as I know, the game doesn't have a lot of bugs, but there are two that I've found that really annoy me:

Glitch 1: your feet can become trapped in the floor on the stairs in the 2 level boss area of the watchers in the chalice dungeons. When this happens, your character simply pivots in place instead of walking or running. This glitch has only ever occurred while fighting the fatties and it took a hit from them to free me, which often resulted in my death

Glitch 2: in the fight against Logarius, your gunshots will often go well over the boss's head because the bullet actually travels in an upward curve. This glitch made the boss extremely difficult to deal with for me, as i could no longer use visceral attacks to take him down. Never had this problem before today.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Vumsy » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Glitch 2 is not a glitch. It's an intended aura-matrix-spell-magic-arts-of-F-you. The best way to parry him is when he jumps in the air, as bullets curve upwards regardless.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby phero » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:07 am

I think you can prevent that aura if you successfully backstab him during his second phase charge-up.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:23 am

Thinking about it, if From had a problem with giving phantoms and invaders a full hp bar in the main game, I think it is still justifiable that non-hosts in the chalice dungeons should have it. The only ways anyone invades in a chalice dungeon is by using a sinister bell, summoning an ally, or entering a sinister root dungeon. Not only would this maintain balance in the regular game the way they originally intended, but it would promote competitive pvp via the SRRC. This, of course, brings us back to the fact that the SRRC needs a major loading time cut.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:38 pm

I've been doing a bit of thinking and i think the gem system is brilliant, BUT it has major flaws that make it extremely tedious. My proposed changes are not likely to find their way into the game, as they would require a massive revision of the entire system, but the ideas i present here would be good for a future title.

Most gems have secondary effects, most of which are almost useless effects like +8 physical attack and -1.3% stamina cost. Unless they are Finestrike, Fool's, Poorman's, or Striking secondary effects, they really don't do enough for you to justify the cost they come at, which is a worse primary effect than you get from a pure gem. Rather than have these secondary effects, remove them, making the primary effect more powerful, and add the Finestrike and Lethal gems as drops for other bosses whose gems would become identical to others. Since doing this would decrease variety of gems possible, they would have to either tier them so that some are better than others (ex. Rom's Nourishing has a halved curse at the cost of some power and Amygdala's curse is 1.5x stronger for slightly more power with the MW's Nourishing sitting in the middle) or spread the drop lists out so that you only have a few gem types possible from any given enemy. For gems such as those dropped by the brainsucker, the effect would be those of a plain respective Odd gem.

Remove the -ATK curse because it's terrible and often shows up at the worst of times. Negative rally potential would be a better curse here, as it is still a potent detrimental effect, but doesn't render a gem worthless like the -ATK curse does.

Gem drop pools are too large for some bosses/enemies. The MW's are a prime example. As it is, the rites add gems to the drop list of such enemies/bosses instead of replace them, which would make gems much easier to hunt for. This, i think, is a pretty easy way of fixing this issue.

An alternative to the above suggestion is having drops for different tiers of insight, such that 0-9 insight gives you tempering and fire, 10-19 gives you striking and radiant, 20-29 gives you fool's and poorman's, etc. This makes gem quality and curse the only factor in finding your perfect gem instead of microscopic percent chances of getting your gem through hours and hours of farming. It's also something that is easily controlled by the player.

Another idea that could work instead of the former one is that insight could affect gem drop quality such that high insight causes the best gems to drop often, but low insight makes them drop very rarely. This would also help solve the problem of tedious gem farming.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby SoloPopo » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:27 am

I would like to see PvP play a more important role. As of now, invaders suffer a 30 percent health loss, and people may only be invaded if they have opened themselves up for invasion with a sinister bell. This does not encourage dueling at all; in fact it literally discourages it, which I find terrible! I was introduced to FromSoft with Bloodborne, and I am now playing Scholar of the First sin. I would really like for the PvP to be more like Dark Souls 2, which has more PvP features.

In particular, I would like to see an arena for dueling, and perhaps a ranking system for Bloodborne. At the very least, I would like for it to be easier to arrange for fair duels. There is so much potential for Bloodborne to be a great competitive game.

Lastly, I'd like to see more bell maidens in the game world. Invaders who are brought in with bell maidens could have the 30 percent health penalty, but if you ring the sinister bell, you should be invaded by players with the same health as you, because if you rang the bell, it's very likely that you are looking for a 1v1 duel. It baffles me why it isn't set up this way now. It could very easily be implemented, and I think everyone would prefer it that way. Really, I'd just like to see the 30 percent health reduction completely eliminated, but I'd be happy so long as there was at least an easy option for fair, same health, dueling.

I played through Bloodborne thinking that I would PvP after I got my guy "good enough." I PvPed a little a long the way, but I was mostly looking forward to late game PvP, after I had beaten the game. To my dismay, there isn't an easy way to arrange for even duels, and not only that, it is actually harder to find opponents after you've defeated every boss and leveled up your character! What the actual fuck???? It's like the game is just done when you beat it, and if you didn't PvP along the way you missed out. I just don't get who thought that was a good idea. It really bums me out, and has completely taken away my motivation to finish the chalice dungeons. Why bother if you can't PvP fairly with all your acquired loot? What would I be gaining that loot for? To fap to?
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:35 pm

SoloPopo wrote:I would like to see PvP play a more important role. As of now, invaders suffer a 30 percent health loss, and people may only be invaded if they have opened themselves up for invasion with a sinister bell. This does not encourage dueling at all; in fact it literally discourages it, which I find terrible! I was introduced to FromSoft with Bloodborne, and I am now playing Scholar of the First sin. I would really like for the PvP to be more like Dark Souls 2, which has more PvP features.

In particular, I would like to see an arena for dueling, and perhaps a ranking system for Bloodborne. At the very least, I would like for it to be easier to arrange for fair duels. There is so much potential for Bloodborne to be a great competitive game.

Lastly, I'd like to see more bell maidens in the game world. Invaders who are brought in with bell maidens could have the 30 percent health penalty, but if you ring the sinister bell, you should be invaded by players with the same health as you, because if you rang the bell, it's very likely that you are looking for a 1v1 duel. It baffles me why it isn't set up this way now. It could very easily be implemented, and I think everyone would prefer it that way. Really, I'd just like to see the 30 percent health reduction completely eliminated, but I'd be happy so long as there was at least an easy option for fair, same health, dueling.

I played through Bloodborne thinking that I would PvP after I got my guy "good enough." I PvPed a little a long the way, but I was mostly looking forward to late game PvP, after I had beaten the game. To my dismay, there isn't an easy way to arrange for even duels, and not only that, it is actually harder to find opponents after you've defeated every boss and leveled up your character! What the actual fuck???? It's like the game is just done when you beat it, and if you didn't PvP along the way you missed out. I just don't get who thought that was a good idea. It really bums me out, and has completely taken away my motivation to finish the chalice dungeons. Why bother if you can't PvP fairly with all your acquired loot? What would I be gaining that loot for? To fap to?

I'm all for no health penalty and more maidens. Bring it back to something like DeS and DkS had. A penalty on uninvited invaders would be perfect to help balance.

As for an arena, i'm setting a fight club up and our battleground will be in the Abyss of the Brain of Mensis. Torches and/or lanterns will be required at all times unless both fighters want to fight in the dark, so lighting shouldn't be an issue. Spells and buffed weapons will really shine here with the high contrast and there will be no shortage of fighting space. It may actually be the only place in the entire game where all of the beams from A Call Beyond can find their target without hitting obstacles. Keep an eye out for the fight club post.

Edit: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=20786&p=200343#p200343
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Jumilaattori » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:06 am

Nothing. I´ll leave it to Mr.Miyazaki-san and pals and enjoy the dlc(s) when they drop.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:19 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:Nothing. I´ll leave it to Mr.Miyazaki-san and pals and enjoy the dlc(s) when they drop.

No point in posting this. It adds nothing to the discussion without valid argument
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Jumilaattori » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:57 pm

So sorry for my invalid opinion.
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:03 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:So sorry for my invalid opinion.

The opinion itself is not invalid. It's just not adding anything to the discussion. This thread is primarily designed to critique the game and discuss potential changes that would improve it. A simple expression of content does not fit into the context of the thread.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:55 pm

I've been doing a lot of thinking on this and there are 2 key flaws that make Bloodborne pvp so imbalanced weapon-wise. I'm not talking about gems. It is deeper than that.

Melee weapon Effective AR's are in too tight a range, with many weapons hitting too hard for their attack speed and risk-value. The reason I mention this issue is because small and medium weapons have the potential to hit just as hard or harder than the big boys AND do so at greater speed. This negates the reward of using slower weapons, which carry a much higher risk of missing an attack and taking a counterattack or getting parried. If you look at the Blade of Mercy, for example, the attack modifiers are quite high. It's why this particular weapon can almost 2hko a double hp rune 50vit phantom with 3 27.2% tempering gems on qs r1's. Now, we look at the Kirkhammer. The r1's don't even hit as hard as the BoM qs r1, but this thing is one of the slowest - if not the slowest - weapon in the game besides the Logwheel. It's not intuitive to have two weapons in completely opposite classes deal remotely the same damage.

The damage formula implementation is poor. The way it works is your weapon AR gets multiplied by your attack modifier and direct hit bonuses BEFORE reductions are taken from defense, which seem to be a flat reduction that scales with the ratio of defense and AR. Weapons that are not meant to deal an incredible amount of damage can do much higher damage for this reason.

An example of what I'm talking about:

Weapon A has 300 physical AR with an attack modifier of 1.2 against a 200def player with 200armordef and gets a direct hit bonus of 20%.

The way the game handles it (not exact, but a good representation):
armor reduction*(AR*modifier*DHBonus -0.5def)
= 0.8(300*1.2*1.2 - 100)
=265.6 damage

The way the game SHOULD handle it:
armor reduction*(AR -0.5def)*DHBonus*modifier
= 0.8(300-100)*1.2*1.2
= 230.4

The way the game handles it is wrong because any kind of modifier or bonus multiplies your AR before taking a flat reduction. The way it should be handled is that the defense reduction should be taken before any modifier or bonus takes effect. That way, the "attack modifiers" are no longer AR modifiers, but damage modifiers, which results in a much tighter range of values for weapons that have lower AR's, but higher effective AR's.

I know i've brought this up before, regarding the damage formula, but testing rosemarinus last night really proved it, as my lowest damage value was 63, my mid-range value was 130, my dh value was 183, and my highest value was 293 without any direct hit bonus when i ashed it. This is a weapon that falls below the defense threshold at SL100, but very nearly reaches it with a dh and exceeds it by a large margin with ash.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: What would YOU do to improve Bloodborne?

Postby eimajtl » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:42 pm

It'd be swell if they added in the ability to rest at lanterns or warp between lanterns. I absolutely loathe warping to a central hub, just to turn around and warp somewhere else. Or when in spending a good chunk of time co-oping bosses, I don't want to warp just to replenish supplies. It's beyond annoying.

If they did add warp g between places back, highlighting areas with higher activity again would be great.
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