Bloodborne Combat Critique

General discussion of all things Bloodborne

Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:26 am

Before I really get into this, I want to put a disclaimer: This thread isn't meant to be negative, nor is it a whine thread. I actually think combat is incredibly fun in this game, however I thought it'd be interesting to dig deeper and see how it could be even better. I don't have anything objective to share with you, I just felt that this board could use more topics, and maybe this will spark peoples' interests. For old time's sake.

1:
Let's start with movesets. I think they're fast and they feel good, with good impact. The problem lies with inconsistent frames. What I mean by that, is that an attack with less frames to execute can still hit for multitudes more than a slower attack. This shouldn't be the case. If an attack executes quickly, it should fall within a low-damage-tier. I would apply this only to human models and enemies of similar size and presumed strength.

2:
Similar to the above, poise/hyperarmor is inconsistent. An attack that's quick and appears to be light can sometimes hit hard, and sometimes be full of unwarranted hyperarmor. An example would be the church guards in the Cathedral Ward. The ones that wield the mighty chicken leg that cause frenzy. This kind of thing needs to be balanced properly. They attack with what is essentially a log. There's no modicum of strain in their animation, they just whip it out and 60% of your health is instantly lost. If an attack must be quick and damaging, it stands to reason that it should at least be interrupted fairly easily.

3:
This is a pretty small gripe, but I'm digging hard here. Holding R2 for a charged strike has two values: Normal and fully-charged. There is no in-between. I always felt that it should do damage proportionate to how long you hold the button, if you hold it for the entire duration, it should grant an extra bonus to the overall damage to incentivize you to finish the charge, but still reward you in those moments when you know you won't be able to get the full charge out in time and opt to execute it prematurely.

4:
The hit detection is a lie. I've noticed with the Threaded Cane, the swing arc is slightly misleading. I'm not sure if it's actually misleading, or if the hit detection is just wonky, either way I've missed a lot of R1s that I could swear went straight through the model. Another problem which may be more of a frames problem than hit detection, however when I charge my Kirkhammer, it pancakes the enemy. Usually I can follow up with another R2 to do a homerun-esque attack as they're getting up. It works with some enemies, and other enemies seem to be completely immune to damage while getting up. It should be all one or the other, I don't really care which.

5:
Thank the stars tracking isn't really an issue anymore. However, lingering hitboxes are an unwelcome abundance, as well as attacks that have a bigger or smaller hitbox than their model indicates. This has always been a problem, and I see that it's likely going to stick around as much as lag itself.

6:
I think it's visually displeasing that an attack that seems to have stopped moving can still do insane damage. I don't mind getting clipped by the tail-end of a swing arc because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do mind getting sent flying with 100% of the damage inflicted, though. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but I think the damage value should be at least roughly proportionate to the speed it was traveling when you got hit.

7:
Character movesets could be improved, I feel like some of them are counter intuitive to their prerequisite motion; running, roll/quickstep, backstep. What I mean is that some of these attacks just are flat out useless as a counter attack, and fail to advance your attack forward. Some of them just seem to come to a dead stop, leaving you vulnerable. I see no reason to restrict range so much. And on the topic of movesets, it seems some attacks also deal less damage than a regular R1. This makes no sense to me, as an R1 generally carries the least risk to execute, they should deal the least damage of all. Otherwise, why bother with the rest of your moveset? There should be balanced pros and cons to every move in a moveset, to encourage broader use of a weapon's entire moveset.

8:
The biggest complaint of mine is the lack of consistency. I don't mind this or that, what I want is for it to be consistent. I don't like certain properties applying to some weapons or movesets, I don't like things working in some instances and not others arbitrarily.

9:
The fact that enemies can attack through eachother is still a bother to me. I'd find it much preferable if they'd flank you, or rhythmically attack you individually, but never through eachother. Of course, this is not a very "souls" way of doing things, but it would be nice to see an extra layer of logic in the mechanics.

10:
Perhaps the closest thing to an objectively valid complaint on the list would be that enemies seem to have unlimited molotovs, bullets and stamina, and possibly even blood viles. I haven't fully tested this, however I know for certain that enemies have an unlimited stock of bullets. The rifle NPC next to the Tonitrus NPC in the Cathedral Ward must have fired his rifle 100 times, with still no sign of running out. I haven't actually tested stamina, but it certainly seems like they have an unlimited amount.

11:
Here's something pretty huge to me that I feel is lacking a lot in Bloodborne, and every other Souls game. Mixups. An AI that chooses an attack not strictly based on its position relative to yours, but also, within very specific parameters, at random. This is less of a critique and more of an innovation idea.

12:
I still think the game should allow you to cancel an attack at least within the startup of the attack, by dodging. I think it would add a nice layer of complexity in PvP, if it were tweaked so that if predicted correctly, it'd leave you open for just long enough to be punishable if it becomes predictable. But, this is also more of an innovation idea than a critique.

That's all for now. If you have anything to add, please do so. Hope at least somebody gives a shit, 'cause this is what I want to talk about.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:51 pm

Cam wrote:Before I really get into this, I want to put a disclaimer: This thread isn't meant to be negative, nor is it a whine thread. I actually think combat is incredibly fun in this game, however I thought it'd be interesting to dig deeper and see how it could be even better. I don't have anything objective to share with you, I just felt that this board could use more topics, and maybe this will spark peoples' interests. For old time's sake.

1:
Let's start with movesets. I think they're fast and they feel good, with good impact. The problem lies with inconsistent frames. What I mean by that, is that an attack with less frames to execute can still hit for multitudes more than a slower attack. This shouldn't be the case. If an attack executes quickly, it should fall within a low-damage-tier. I would apply this only to human models and enemies of similar size and presumed strength.

2:
Similar to the above, poise/hyperarmor is inconsistent. An attack that's quick and appears to be light can sometimes hit hard, and sometimes be full of unwarranted hyperarmor. An example would be the church guards in the Cathedral Ward. The ones that wield the mighty chicken leg that cause frenzy. This kind of thing needs to be balanced properly. They attack with what is essentially a log. There's no modicum of strain in their animation, they just whip it out and 60% of your health is instantly lost. If an attack must be quick and damaging, it stands to reason that it should at least be interrupted fairly easily.

3:
This is a pretty small gripe, but I'm digging hard here. Holding R2 for a charged strike has two values: Normal and fully-charged. There is no in-between. I always felt that it should do damage proportionate to how long you hold the button, if you hold it for the entire duration, it should grant an extra bonus to the overall damage to incentivize you to finish the charge, but still reward you in those moments when you know you won't be able to get the full charge out in time and opt to execute it prematurely.

4:
The hit detection is a lie. I've noticed with the Threaded Cane, the swing arc is slightly misleading. I'm not sure if it's actually misleading, or if the hit detection is just wonky, either way I've missed a lot of R1s that I could swear went straight through the model. Another problem which may be more of a frames problem than hit detection, however when I charge my Kirkhammer, it pancakes the enemy. Usually I can follow up with another R2 to do a homerun-esque attack as they're getting up. It works with some enemies, and other enemies seem to be completely immune to damage while getting up. It should be all one or the other, I don't really care which.

5:
Thank the stars tracking isn't really an issue anymore. However, lingering hitboxes are an unwelcome abundance, as well as attacks that have a bigger or smaller hitbox than their model indicates. This has always been a problem, and I see that it's likely going to stick around as much as lag itself.

6:
I think it's visually displeasing that an attack that seems to have stopped moving can still do insane damage. I don't mind getting clipped by the tail-end of a swing arc because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do mind getting sent flying with 100% of the damage inflicted, though. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but I think the damage value should be at least roughly proportionate to the speed it was traveling when you got hit.

7:
Character movesets could be improved, I feel like some of them are counter intuitive to their prerequisite motion; running, roll/quickstep, backstep. What I mean is that some of these attacks just are flat out useless as a counter attack, and fail to advance your attack forward. Some of them just seem to come to a dead stop, leaving you vulnerable. I see no reason to restrict range so much. And on the topic of movesets, it seems some attacks also deal less damage than a regular R1. This makes no sense to me, as an R1 generally carries the least risk to execute, they should deal the least damage of all. Otherwise, why bother with the rest of your moveset? There should be balanced pros and cons to every move in a moveset, to encourage broader use of a weapon's entire moveset.

8:
The biggest complaint of mine is the lack of consistency. I don't mind this or that, what I want is for it to be consistent. I don't like certain properties applying to some weapons or movesets, I don't like things working in some instances and not others arbitrarily.

9:
The fact that enemies can attack through eachother is still a bother to me. I'd find it much preferable if they'd flank you, or rhythmically attack you individually, but never through eachother. Of course, this is not a very "souls" way of doing things, but it would be nice to see an extra layer of logic in the mechanics.

10:
Perhaps the closest thing to an objectively valid complaint on the list would be that enemies seem to have unlimited molotovs, bullets and stamina, and possibly even blood viles. I haven't fully tested this, however I know for certain that enemies have an unlimited stock of bullets. The rifle NPC next to the Tonitrus NPC in the Cathedral Ward must have fired his rifle 100 times, with still no sign of running out. I haven't actually tested stamina, but it certainly seems like they have an unlimited amount.

11:
Here's something pretty huge to me that I feel is lacking a lot in Bloodborne, and every other Souls game. Mixups. An AI that chooses an attack not strictly based on its position relative to yours, but also, within very specific parameters, at random. This is less of a critique and more of an innovation idea.

12:
I still think the game should allow you to cancel an attack at least within the startup of the attack, by dodging. I think it would add a nice layer of complexity in PvP, if it were tweaked so that if predicted correctly, it'd leave you open for just long enough to be punishable if it becomes predictable. But, this is also more of an innovation idea than a critique.

That's all for now. If you have anything to add, please do so. Hope at least somebody gives a shit, 'cause this is what I want to talk about.

I would say you pretty much nailed it , but the are some smaller matters you left out.

Guns are too easy to spam and can deal way too much damage at times (ashed Evelyn or Cannon, anyone?). Can't say how many times I've fought someone who spent half the fight spamming their L2. It gets annoying, especially when they are dealing 10-30% of your hp in damage per hit in chip damage and are taking 0 risks for the sake of fair play.

There is the issue that phantom hp is reduced and vials scale with max hp. A host automatically has a huge advantage in both hp AND healing capability, so they are much more likely to win.

There's also no reason to use the Vileblood rune since the other 2 oath runes outclass it. This, in turn, renders the church weapon damage bonus useless and offers incentive to use the Vileblood weapons and deal comparable damage with a faster weapon.

Just my little critique. Love the game, but I think these could be revised to balance the game a bit more. Oh, and give the damn Logwheel a slight buff on that charged R2! It's weaker than the Axe spin, has less range, and is more predictable.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:43 am

Astrichthyes wrote: I would say you pretty much nailed it , but the are some smaller matters you left out.

Guns are too easy to spam and can deal way too much damage at times (ashed Evelyn or Cannon, anyone?). Can't say how many times I've fought someone who spent half the fight spamming their L2. It gets annoying, especially when they are dealing 10-30% of your hp in damage per hit in chip damage and are taking 0 risks for the sake of fair play.

There is the issue that phantom hp is reduced and vials scale with max hp. A host automatically has a huge advantage in both hp AND healing capability, so they are much more likely to win.

There's also no reason to use the Vileblood rune since the other 2 oath runes outclass it. This, in turn, renders the church weapon damage bonus useless and offers incentive to use the Vileblood weapons and deal comparable damage with a faster weapon.

Just my little critique. Love the game, but I think these could be revised to balance the game a bit more. Oh, and give the damn Logwheel a slight buff on that charged R2! It's weaker than the Axe spin, has less range, and is more predictable.

Without even thinking, I was focusing more on the melee aspects since that's how I personally play. But yes, firearms should be tweaked. So much could be fixed by a reload animation. Not an obnoxiously long one. I'd say the best balance would be a quick reload that you can punish as long as you can predict their shot and are close enough. Instantly, it carries some risk to mindlessly spam it.

I don't mind that invaders have reduced HP, I think the problem is that they don't have increased damage to compensate. But it'd be a cleaner system if there was no HP deduction for invaders, and I think that'd be fine, too.

I feel like big weapons in general can't compete with faster weapons because of blood gems. There isn't a valid reason to use the Kirkhammer over Lugwig's, and it appears the Logwheel is gimped pretty bad. I feel the damage values need to be tweaked a lot. One thing I can say the Logwheel probably has an easier moveset to use. Most of the KH moveset's are vertical strikes, and with how slow it is, it's hard to connect. On the other hand, Ludwig's has mostly horizontal strikes that are probably faster and have almost as much poise break, while also doing more damage. What's the point?

I also think the Threaded Cane does terrible damage, even for a light weapon, and in whip form it doesn't even have a charge attack, and because it's still one-handed, it doesn't have an L2 attack, either. The only thing it has is range, but the Hunter Axe and transformed Saw Cleaver both have good range and good damage to back them up. Weapons are off balance overall, and it feels like some are useless while others are straight-up better. That's my opinion.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:24 am

Cam wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote: I would say you pretty much nailed it , but the are some smaller matters you left out.

Guns are too easy to spam and can deal way too much damage at times (ashed Evelyn or Cannon, anyone?). Can't say how many times I've fought someone who spent half the fight spamming their L2. It gets annoying, especially when they are dealing 10-30% of your hp in damage per hit in chip damage and are taking 0 risks for the sake of fair play.

There is the issue that phantom hp is reduced and vials scale with max hp. A host automatically has a huge advantage in both hp AND healing capability, so they are much more likely to win.

There's also no reason to use the Vileblood rune since the other 2 oath runes outclass it. This, in turn, renders the church weapon damage bonus useless and offers incentive to use the Vileblood weapons and deal comparable damage with a faster weapon.

Just my little critique. Love the game, but I think these could be revised to balance the game a bit more. Oh, and give the damn Logwheel a slight buff on that charged R2! It's weaker than the Axe spin, has less range, and is more predictable.

Without even thinking, I was focusing more on the melee aspects since that's how I personally play. But yes, firearms should be tweaked. So much could be fixed by a reload animation. Not an obnoxiously long one. I'd say the best balance would be a quick reload that you can punish as long as you can predict their shot and are close enough. Instantly, it carries some risk to mindlessly spam it.

I don't mind that invaders have reduced HP, I think the problem is that they don't have increased damage to compensate. But it'd be a cleaner system if there was no HP deduction for invaders, and I think that'd be fine, too.

I feel like big weapons in general can't compete with faster weapons because of blood gems. There isn't a valid reason to use the Kirkhammer over Lugwig's, and it appears the Logwheel is gimped pretty bad. I feel the damage values need to be tweaked a lot. One thing I can say the Logwheel probably has an easier moveset to use. Most of the KH moveset's are vertical strikes, and with how slow it is, it's hard to connect. On the other hand, Ludwig's has mostly horizontal strikes that are probably faster and have almost as much poise break, while also doing more damage. What's the point?

I also think the Threaded Cane does terrible damage, even for a light weapon, and in whip form it doesn't even have a charge attack, and because it's still one-handed, it doesn't have an L2 attack, either. The only thing it has is range, but the Hunter Axe and transformed Saw Cleaver both have good range and good damage to back them up. Weapons are off balance overall, and it feels like some are useless while others are straight-up better. That's my opinion.

I would say, based on my calculations with the wheel, the damage of a 50/10 with 3 max blunt gems is pretty good. The biggest problem I see is that a Logwheel dash r1 can deal the same damage as a stakedriver counterhit. These weapons are in two different leagues. I don't think a counterhit from a small weapon should compare to a regular hit from a heavy strength weapon. the moveset of Kirk needs work because LHB does outclass it because of the moveset. I love the Kirk, but vertical strikes are bad when the hitbox is so narrow. Even taking the angle down to a 45 degree downward swing would help increase the AoE, which is a huge advantage the 2h Logwheel has over it as well
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:09 am

Astrichthyes wrote: I would say, based on my calculations with the wheel, the damage of a 50/10 with 3 max blunt gems is pretty good. The biggest problem I see is that a Logwheel dash r1 can deal the same damage as a stakedriver counterhit. These weapons are in two different leagues. I don't think a counterhit from a small weapon should compare to a regular hit from a heavy strength weapon. the moveset of Kirk needs work because LHB does outclass it because of the moveset. I love the Kirk, but vertical strikes are bad when the hitbox is so narrow. Even taking the angle down to a 45 degree downward swing would help increase the AoE, which is a huge advantage the 2h Logwheel has over it as well

Well, this comes back to damage tiers like I talked about earlier. The R1 of an "ultra great weapon" should never do less damage than anything a regular longsword or a fist weapon can do when both are used with maximum stats. These weapons are generally so slow that they need to be completely unmatched in damage. Even in the case of the Kirkhammer's longsword, it's criminal how much damage it does for how quick and great the moveset is, but I find it difficult to blame the KH when LHB has one that's better in every single way I'm pretty bitter about that thing.

Damage tiers dependent on weight classes is something I feel has always been necessary. A longsword should never do equal, much less... Less damage than a huge, destructive, blunt weapon. For the same reason that we don't swing giant weapons about like lightsabers.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:59 pm

While it's not directly related to combat, I think this is relevant to this discussion:

Astrichthyes wrote: Some gems also seem a lot more rare than they should be. I've been farming for two weeks and every time I get the blunt gem i'm looking for, it has -ATK. I think they need to remove this particular curse because no one in their right mind is going to use that gem. No point in making them completely useless, especially when we're going through so much trouble to farm these gems. Really, I don't know anyone in their right mind who wouldn't rage when they farm and farm for days, only to get the gem they want with -ATK.


Edit: Perhaps I jinxed myself, but I got a 32.6% blunt gem with, of all things, -8.5%ATK
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:21 pm

I think the most ideal for PvE is -HP, and for PvP -damage against beasts.

Actually, I read somewhere that -Damage against kin does nothing in PvP, but do other hunters not count as kin?
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:07 pm

Kin is a mob.. the brainsucker one and maybe all extraterrestrial mobs.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:47 am

Okay. That answers my question.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Vumsy » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:23 pm

If I were to list a complaint towards bloodbornes combat, it'd be how the rally mechanic is based on weapon modifiers rather than damage output. Early levels are were rallying feels intuitive, because enemies deal so little damage against your near non-existant resists and small hp pool. Rallying feels like lifesteal. Later in the game however it falls off tremendously.
For instance, if a fully charged stakedriver R2 with only weapon requirements, +0 and no gems were to rally on an enemy, it would heal just as much as a stakedriver +10, with x3 top tier gems and 99 Str/Skl. Sure getting the balance right to avoid late game abuse cases would be a pain, but I still don't feel a mechanic rewarding you for dealing damage rewards you enough when you invest stats, materials and gem grinding into more damage.
There's probably more gripes I have, but this was the one that came to mind.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:31 pm

Vumsy wrote:If I were to list a complaint towards bloodbornes combat, it'd be how the rally mechanic is based on weapon modifiers rather than damage output. Early levels are were rallying feels intuitive, because enemies deal so little damage against your near non-existant resists and small hp pool. Rallying feels like lifesteal. Later in the game however it falls off tremendously.
For instance, if a fully charged stakedriver R2 with only weapon requirements, +0 and no gems were to rally on an enemy, it would heal just as much as a stakedriver +10, with x3 top tier gems and 99 Str/Skl. Sure getting the balance right to avoid late game abuse cases would be a pain, but I still don't feel a mechanic rewarding you for dealing damage rewards you enough when you invest stats, materials and gem grinding into more damage.
There's probably more gripes I have, but this was the one that came to mind.

Something I don't like with rally: Logwheel gets 50 per hit (150 per multi-hit attack, 50 for all others) and Hunter axe gets 125 per hit (250 for a charged r2). This doesn't seem logically fair to me because the attack speed and stamina consumption are proportionally better on the axe. I think, in order to make rally worthwhile, it should scale with moveset multipliers. Think about it: a kirkhammer sword having low rally while the hammer gets full rally with a huge rally on charged attacks. The wheel would have high rally with lower additional rally for the multi-hits. You would have to readjust the base values, but it would effectively make this mechanic more worthwhile with variable rally for all attacks rather than simple r1 spamming as a means to an end
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Vumsy » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:39 am

I meant weapon multipliers when I said modifiers. Kirk sword got extremely low multipliers, while the kirk hammer got high multipliers. Meaning hammer form hheals more. Which is by all means fair.
However let's say kirk hammer hits for 200 damage off an R1 and heals you for 100 hp. Then you upgrade your weapon and stats to the point where the sword mode hits for 200 damage, you'd get 70 hp from rallying. At this point your hammer form would hit for 260 damage, but you'd still heal for 100 hp.
This is what I mean with rallying falling off later in the game, when you take a hit that chunks you for 1000 hp, and respond to it by dealing 2000 damage back to your enemy, you don't get 1000 hp back, you get maybe 300-400 hp back.
I'd rather have rallying heal you for 25-50% of your damage dealt rather than weapon moveset multipliers.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby zeech » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:55 am

Cam wrote:10:
Perhaps the closest thing to an objectively valid complaint on the list would be that enemies seem to have unlimited molotovs, bullets and stamina, and possibly even blood viles. I haven't fully tested this, however I know for certain that enemies have an unlimited stock of bullets. The rifle NPC next to the Tonitrus NPC in the Cathedral Ward must have fired his rifle 100 times, with still no sign of running out. I haven't actually tested stamina, but it certainly seems like they have an unlimited amount.


Whenever I hear people complaining about NPC characters having an advantage over PC characters (eg. the people complaining about various NPC invaders in DS2), I want to make a little mock post where two NPC characters complain about humans...

"Humans are so OP, so unfiar! They get to switch weapons... they get to upgrade weapons, and don't get me started on level up."
"FROM really sucks at balance... at least let me switch to a shield when the player starts sniping me with poison arrows from halfway across the map..."
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:24 pm

zeech wrote:
Cam wrote:10:
Perhaps the closest thing to an objectively valid complaint on the list would be that enemies seem to have unlimited molotovs, bullets and stamina, and possibly even blood viles. I haven't fully tested this, however I know for certain that enemies have an unlimited stock of bullets. The rifle NPC next to the Tonitrus NPC in the Cathedral Ward must have fired his rifle 100 times, with still no sign of running out. I haven't actually tested stamina, but it certainly seems like they have an unlimited amount.


Whenever I hear people complaining about NPC characters having an advantage over PC characters (eg. the people complaining about various NPC invaders in DS2), I want to make a little mock post where two NPC characters complain about humans...

"Humans are so OP, so unfiar! They get to switch weapons... they get to upgrade weapons, and don't get me started on level up."
"FROM really sucks at balance... at least let me switch to a shield when the player starts sniping me with poison arrows from halfway across the map..."

I'm.. Sorry you feel that way, Zeech.

If From designed the enemies to be intelligent enough to deal with repetitive strategies, I'd have no problem with that.
Still, NPCs having unlimited stamina is really not a good thing at all. The AI can still be improved to be really tough without relying on doing 3 times the damage you do with 3 times the HP you have along with an unlimited stamina bar and unlimited bullets. I feel like the term is slightly overused by now, but that's what I'd call artificial difficulty.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:41 am

So honest first impressions of hizzngr3, spent about 5 hours there PvPing, had a couple good fights but 90% of them were bloodtinge bulletspam builds and i honestly just don't have a clue how to fight them other than to create one myself. One shot at close range takes half my health, chikage users can and will spam dodge for 15 minutes and if they cant get a hit in will back off and just spam bullets, maybe it's noob pains but something about this tactic feels cheap and extremely overpowered. I honestly would like to know how to fight these builds without joining them, here is my stats, critique away.

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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:53 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:So honest first impressions of hizzngr3, spent about 5 hours there PvPing, had a couple good fights but 90% of them were bloodtinge bulletspam builds and i honestly just don't have a clue how to fight them other than to create one myself. One shot at close range takes half my health, chikage users can and will spam dodge for 15 minutes and if they cant get a hit in will back off and just spam bullets, maybe it's noob pains but something about this tactic feels cheap and extremely overpowered. I honestly would like to know how to fight these builds without joining them, here is my stats, critique away.

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*posted here instead of other thread to be more on topic*

Have you tried the wooden shield? I used it against NPC hunters and it works magnificently, but I don't know if it works against high level bloodtinge builds, and I haven't had a chance to test it myself.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby DidoRumbus » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:09 am

Shield does work (some damage passes thru of course), but so does dodge spam... against everything in this game :lol: You should be using HP runes over defence runes, but otherwise build is solid, blades of mercy do well against chikage. Low stamina attacks and spam dodge for days. I'm assuming that since you haven't farmed runes, you also haven't farmed gems? This will make a huge difference, most ppl you fight will be using the big bad 27% cursed gems. Nourishing are good on blades of mercy and burial blade as well. Also, SL 100 is on the low end of the meta, your build is complete at 100 but 100-120 is common. A lot of ppl last I heard were advocating 150 (so that every build can VIT gouge in order to deal with bloodtinge) :lol:

I'm also not a fan of bloodborne pvp in its current form, I did hizzngr3 for a while but got bored for a lot of the reasons you've been bringing up. I will definitely return for the DLC though and see what the patch brings us!
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:17 am

Cam wrote:Have you tried the wooden shield? I used it against NPC hunters and it works magnificently, but I don't know if it works against high level bloodtinge builds, and I haven't had a chance to test it myself.


Shield just isn't doing enough to make it worthwhile over spamming dodge.

DidoRumbus wrote:Shield does work (some damage passes thru of course), but so does dodge spam... against everything in this game :lol: You should be using HP runes over defence runes, but otherwise build is solid, blades of mercy do well against chikage. Low stamina attacks and spam dodge for days. I'm assuming that since you haven't farmed runes, you also haven't farmed gems? This will make a huge difference, most ppl you fight will be using the big bad 27% cursed gems. Nourishing are good on blades of mercy and burial blade as well. Also, SL 100 is on the low end of the meta, your build is complete at 100 but 100-120 is common. A lot of ppl last I heard were advocating 150 (so that every build can VIT gouge in order to deal with bloodtinge) :lol:

I'm also not a fan of bloodborne pvp in its current form, I did hizzngr3 for a while but got bored for a lot of the reasons you've been bringing up. I will definitely return for the DLC though and see what the patch brings us!


Yea i think i'm gonna go up to 150, bloodtinge is just stupid at this level, i can fight it but it takes an extreme amount of effort and a lot of dodging, which my opponent can also do so Bloodtinge consistently has the edge at level 100 and just 20 levels i dont see that changing, that allows one other soft capped skill, and that isn't changing the game.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:08 am

Are you reading your opponent? When do they fire at you? Usually it's when you try to close the gap, or get some distance to heal. If they're just firing blindly from a distance, then I can't fathom what the problem is. Either get some distance so you can react or learn at which range they like to fire so you can account for that when you close the gap. There's probably a pattern you can exploit.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:06 am

Cam wrote:Are you reading your opponent? When do they fire at you? Usually it's when you try to close the gap, or get some distance to heal. If they're just firing blindly from a distance, then I can't fathom what the problem is. Either get some distance so you can react or learn at which range they like to fire so you can account for that when you close the gap. There's probably a pattern you can exploit.


That's not always the problem, but they do use that tactic to make me close the gap sometimes, but it's not possible to just avoid bullets every time, its an easy to spam move at any range and at 50 bloodtinge its a free hit and a stun/possible parry it's absolutely broken and i don't see how anyone could think otherwise. i can dodge all day but i'm not going to evade everything, and i don't care how good you are, you will get hit eventually and bloodtinge htis harder.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:04 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Cam wrote:Are you reading your opponent? When do they fire at you? Usually it's when you try to close the gap, or get some distance to heal. If they're just firing blindly from a distance, then I can't fathom what the problem is. Either get some distance so you can react or learn at which range they like to fire so you can account for that when you close the gap. There's probably a pattern you can exploit.


That's not always the problem, but they do use that tactic to make me close the gap sometimes, but it's not possible to just avoid bullets every time, its an easy to spam move at any range and at 50 bloodtinge its a free hit and a stun/possible parry it's absolutely broken and i don't see how anyone could think otherwise. i can dodge all day but i'm not going to evade everything, and i don't care how good you are, you will get hit eventually and bloodtinge htis harder.

No objections here. Guns are too easy to abuse. Last time I fought in hizz, I invaded a guy who took well over 3000 damage and healed numerous times. He couldn't land a hit and fired his gun every time i got close. Even took a fully charged Kirk 2h pancake attack. After healing up, he fires one lucky shot and parries. OHKO riposte. Is this fair, even if you deal miniscule damage with your gun? Phantom hp is too low for how high the damage goes in this game. I think guns need a larger reload time so that they are more punishable. As it is, all you need to win in some battles is Evelyn and a good stock of bullets and vials, let alone a hosting hp advantage. Even if you do smack your opponent on the back every time they fire that gun, they'll figure it out and dodge spam you until you make a mistake. The chip damage alone is enough to pressure a heal for a parry. You probably won't dodge enough bullets to make them run out before you have to heal, at which point they simply start pressing that L2 until you die. I've seen it a bunch of times and I have barely PvP'd at all between my Logwheel testing and MW drop list ( which is going swimmingly, I might add). If anyone needs help against these BT tryhards, I'd be happy to assist with a brief lesson, but it's going to be a much more difficult feat to beat them than it will for them to beat you.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Vumsy » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:33 pm

Actually, (like said before) BoM just wrecks BT builds. Spamming dodge costs no resources unlike spamming bullets. So unless you attack after every second quickstep like a tool, then it won't work obviously.

Something fun to note,
my BT kills str/quality builds (spam bullets vs slow weapons),
my str and quality builds destroys skill builds (hyperarmor and superior dmg),
my skill builds beats bt builds (10 stamina and BoM dmg > 1 bullet)
I got no idea how this rock/paper/scissors thing ever happened, but I'm excited to see if lizard and spock broadens the advantage table.
Got a feeling an arCANE build might be extremely annoying for both skill and str/quality builds. Due to superior range and speed, with respectable gem dmg.
Also think if Reiter gets it's gem interaction fixed, it might prove a worthy advisary for bt builds. Elemental bullets should out-gun evelyn if specced right.

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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:01 pm

Vumsy wrote:Actually, (like said before) BoM just wrecks BT builds. Spamming dodge costs no resources unlike spamming bullets. So unless you attack after every second quickstep like a tool, then it won't work obviously.

Something fun to note,
my BT kills str/quality builds (spam bullets vs slow weapons),
my str and quality builds destroys skill builds (hyperarmor and superior dmg),
my skill builds beats bt builds (10 stamina and BoM dmg > 1 bullet)
I got no idea how this rock/paper/scissors thing ever happened, but I'm excited to see if lizard and spock broadens the advantage table.
Got a feeling an arCANE build might be extremely annoying for both skill and str/quality builds. Due to superior range and speed, with respectable gem dmg.
Also think if Reiter gets it's gem interaction fixed, it might prove a worthy advisary for bt builds. Elemental bullets should out-gun evelyn if specced right.

Contents of the upcoming expansion revealed cannot come soon enough.

I run a str build and the only reason BT beats it at all is not because my weapons are slow. It's because the guys using it are popping 10-20 vials per fight while i'm only using... 2? Maybe 3? And it's not because i'm afraid to use them. It's because using that many vials against a desperate bastard like that is absurd and a waste of time. Not to mention the fact that they will simply spam their firearm as soon as they see you back off at all.

Another thing not being taken into consideration here is that an ashed Evelyn can take almost half of a phantom's hp bar if used at the proper time. That's way too powerful for 1/20+ gunshots and your opponent only truly runs out of bullets when they drop below 30%+1 hp and have no reserves or vials left. If your opponent pops 20 vials and makes bullets every time (unlikely, but possible), they can have 120+ bullets for a single long fight. Add on the fact that they can ash 10 times for insane damage. Also add on the fact that every shot that connects has a chance of parrying you and opening you up to a visceral for the kill. It wouldn't be so bad if the reload time was longer because you could easily punish it like you could parry whiffs in DeS and DkS, but it's fast enough that players can spam it, it deals damage and stuns both up close and at range, and it acts as a ranged parry that can allow for OHKO's via viscerals+clawmarks+gems. Guns as a parry mechanism are absolutely terrible for fair and competitive play under current conditions.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby asagoe » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:47 am

@magicisover... sl100 bloodtinge is too good for the competition, I have the same build as you, with 5 more points in endurance and 20 in bloodtinge (sl 125); health 10 and 15 instead of defensive runes, shield and repeating pistol left, reiter and burial blade right; spent my entire pvp time in that dungeon, win ratio as host over 90%, 2/3 as phantom, ashed repeating pistol hits hard with the appropriate gem (you basically need to farm 6 physical 27,2 gems and 1 bloodtinge 31,5).
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:33 am

asagoe wrote:@magicisover... sl100 bloodtinge is too good for the competition, I have the same build as you, with 5 more points in endurance and 20 in bloodtinge (sl 125); health 10 and 15 instead of defensive runes, shield and repeating pistol left, reiter and burial blade right; spent my entire pvp time in that dungeon, win ratio as host over 90%, 2/3 as phantom, ashed repeating pistol hits hard with the appropriate gem (you basically need to farm 6 physical 27,2 gems and 1 bloodtinge 31,5).


I have to agree here, with both you and Astrichthyes, Bloodtinge is obnoxiously overpowered. I managed to have a single good fight today with a BT build that didn't spam his firearm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tODMotsviog

If you watch you'll see he only hits me three times and it nearly kills me, had he been shooting me like most BT builds do i'd have died easily. This shit needs a nerf, or they need to buff other builds to be up to par, i understand BT builds can only really use chikage at level 100, but why would they need to use anything else? the thing is a beast.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Vumsy » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:45 am

Physical resist runes increases bloodtinge defense btw. So 10+15% hp runes and a 7% phys resist rune should leave you fairly tanky. Bloodtinge is still OP though.
When it comes to lvl150 builds, I'd stick with main damage stat at 45-50, requirements for weapons/tools, stamina as low as you're comfortable with and dump the rest into vitality. Since you get defense per level, you might as well get as much effective hp as possible. Ideally you have your lvl 100 set-up, only with 90-99 vitality.

My thoughts on lvl 150 pvp vs. 100 pvp is 150 being more fun, but 100 being more exciting. I enjoy getting punished and punishing mistakes with 1-3 hit ko's. Makes it more intense. Eitherway, my prediction is should the pvp landscape change, such as ease of organizing pvp/phantom not suffering the hp penalty, etc. Level 100 will be considered the most ideal pvp level. If things stay as they are, 150 will probably be the new preferred level range for pvp. Simply because of bt builds and clawmark set-ups. It also gives you a fighting chance in 3v1's due to being tanky enough to survive 2 hits.

If I were you, I'd back up your save before going 150, and see what the expansion brings before deciding wether or not to commit.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:27 am

Vumsy wrote:
If I were you, I'd back up your save before going 150, and see what the expansion brings before deciding wether or not to commit.


USB + PS+ i got like 3 different meta levels with a single character going :P, level 125 i think is a good medium, i have a huge problem with all builds going for 90 vit as a must have over a single build being slightly overpowered. I have to really say that is the definition of something that needs patching, but that is miyazaki even recognizes us...

Who knows what the DLC will bring us but as of right now 150 is kind of a dead zone.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Cam » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:35 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:If you watch you'll see he only hits me three times and it nearly kills me, had he been shooting me like most BT builds do i'd have died easily. This shit needs a nerf, or they need to buff other builds to be up to par, i understand BT builds can only really use chikage at level 100, but why would they need to use anything else? the thing is a beast.
I was under the impression Chikage was inflicting like, 800 damage per R1. That's kind of underwhelming to be honest.

Also, your attacks are mere chip damage. Did you farm gems for your BoM? You can get 600AR at level 119, that's pretty heavy for what's likely the quickest R1 in the game.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:41 am

Cam wrote:I was under the impression Chikage was inflicting like, 800 damage per R1. That's kind of underwhelming to be honest.


it is? granted i haven't played BB PvP a whole lot, but i only have like 1500 health, 800 damage is over 1/3 of my health.

Cam wrote:Also, your attacks are mere chip damage. Did you farm gems for your BoM? You can get 600AR at level 119, that's pretty heavy for what's likely the quickest R1 in the game.


no, i've been lazy about farming gemstones, i seem to do well without them though, i really hate mmo mechanics in single player games.
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Re: Bloodborne Combat Critique

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:53 am

Cam wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:If you watch you'll see he only hits me three times and it nearly kills me, had he been shooting me like most BT builds do i'd have died easily. This shit needs a nerf, or they need to buff other builds to be up to par, i understand BT builds can only really use chikage at level 100, but why would they need to use anything else? the thing is a beast.
I was under the impression Chikage was inflicting like, 800 damage per R1. That's kind of underwhelming to be honest.

Also, your attacks are mere chip damage. Did you farm gems for your BoM? You can get 600AR at level 119, that's pretty heavy for what's likely the quickest R1 in the game.

Underwhelming? 800 damage is almost 80% of a 50v phantom's hp if they don't run runes. One problem I see with SL150 is that there's no stat optimization necessary. I'm imagining quality builds dominating while str takes a back seat. You can have 50 in 2 damage stats and still have over 50v. 125 seems like a happy medium because this cannot be achieved AFAIK. Granted, most of the players I've fought in hizz seem to be SL 120, so that's another thing that probably makes PvP so difficult atm. The 20 level advantage makes them hit harder and mitigate more damage
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