What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

General discussion of all things Bloodborne

Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:35 pm

Tsmp wrote:I'm sorry, I don't ever talk about PvP against players who aren't at least my own skill level. You wouldn't know that though, so it's fine.

But yeah, when I was talking about the Fume Greatsword being a very good weapon, I didn't mean against people who aren't good enough to know how to beat it. I meant it's a good weapon in a situation where both players ought to know enough about the game to understand how to use/counter it, i.e. against players of equal skill. And of course, against players who are generally good but simply lack experience against that one particular weapon class, I'm more than happy to give them all the practice they need. Only after that would fighting them count.

I honestly don't know why anyone would bother PvPing people who don't have a chance of beating them. What's the purpose of winning against a player while using a broken sword if they weren't going to win in the first place? :?


I don't understand your reasoning, are you trying to say if i PvP someone once and realize they aren't my tier to just ignore them and let them play with lower skilled players? This doesn't help anybody.

I play against any player of any skill level, and if they have a hard time winning i tend to change it up to give them more of a chance, like using broken sword, unfortunately in DeS, if your brand new to the game vs a skilled player broken sword can actually become a viable threat, it's funny, but true, and it teaches them how to protect their back and dodge better, it was not to just rub it in their face.

Against equally skilled players low iframe count, heavy builds are not as viable as they seem outside of using tricks and that initial shock value as you said, that is the point of my post.To clarify, yes UGS can win, of course it can, especially at higher skill tiers, but it's not as viable and is not winning as many games as quicker builds are due to the games imbalance.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:32 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Tsmp wrote:I'm sorry, I don't ever talk about PvP against players who aren't at least my own skill level. You wouldn't know that though, so it's fine.

But yeah, when I was talking about the Fume Greatsword being a very good weapon, I didn't mean against people who aren't good enough to know how to beat it. I meant it's a good weapon in a situation where both players ought to know enough about the game to understand how to use/counter it, i.e. against players of equal skill. And of course, against players who are generally good but simply lack experience against that one particular weapon class, I'm more than happy to give them all the practice they need. Only after that would fighting them count.

I honestly don't know why anyone would bother PvPing people who don't have a chance of beating them. What's the purpose of winning against a player while using a broken sword if they weren't going to win in the first place? :?


I don't understand your reasoning, are you trying to say if i PvP someone once and realize they aren't my tier to just ignore them and let them play with lower skilled players? This doesn't help anybody.

I play against any player of any skill level, and if they have a hard time winning i tend to change it up to give them more of a chance, like using broken sword, unfortunately in DeS, if your brand new to the game vs a skilled player broken sword can actually become a viable threat, it's funny, but true, and it teaches them how to protect their back and dodge better, it was not to just rub it in their face.

Against equally skilled players low iframe count, heavy builds are not as viable as they seem outside of using tricks and that initial shock value as you said, that is the point of my post.To clarify, yes UGS can win, of course it can, especially at higher skill tiers, but it's not as viable and is not winning as many games as quicker builds are due to the games imbalance.

Oh no, don't ignore other players at all. I'm simply saying I don't personally count any wins against players less skilled than I am when talking about how skilled I think I am, or when discussing what is or isn't a viable tactic. I'll still fight anyone at all, and sometimes I drag the fight on a bit and give them small openings to see if they'll catch on and take them. It's fun to watch people learn and adapt.

Anyways. Maybe I'll have to start playing DaS2 again and make a proper heavy build, and then we can give it a go to see how viable they really are. Don't expect it to happen this week though, I bought the PS4 version but haven't really touched it. Been too busy playing BB.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:42 pm

Tsmp wrote:Oh no, don't ignore other players at all. I'm simply saying I don't personally count any wins against players less skilled than I am when talking about how skilled I think I am, or when discussing what is or isn't a viable tactic. I'll still fight anyone at all, and sometimes I drag the fight on a bit and give them small openings to see if they'll catch on and take them. It's fun to watch people learn and adapt.

Anyways. Maybe I'll have to start playing DaS2 again and make a proper heavy build, and then we can give it a go to see how viable they really are. Don't expect it to happen this week though, I bought the PS4 version but haven't really touched it. Been too busy playing BB.



And nobody should take a win vs a lower tier player as indication of how good they can do vs an equally skilled opponent, which is the point of my first post, but the tiers a player can win against consistently gives an indication of how skilled a player is, if you can beat someone with a broken sword you are obviously of a higher tier than a brand new player, i'm not saying it should bolster the ego, but you have to look at these things more objectively before you can come to a rational debate about skill.

looking forward to your attempt to make UGS appear viable, if you can pull a higher than 40% win ratio against top tier players i will be impressed, but you have to remember your experience and take on the UGS is anecdotal and does not accurately depict the state of the game as a whole, which is what i'm talking about
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:26 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:And nobody should take a win vs a lower tier player as indication of how good they can do vs an equally skilled opponent, which is the point of my first post, but the tiers a player can win against consistently gives an indication of how skilled a player is, if you can beat someone with a broken sword you are obviously of a higher tier than a brand new player, i'm not saying it should bolster the ego, but you have to look at these things more objectively before you can come to a rational debate about skill.

looking forward to your attempt to make UGS appear viable, if you can pull a higher than 40% win ratio against top tier players i will be impressed, but you have to remember your experience and take on the UGS is anecdotal and does not accurately depict the state of the game as a whole, which is what i'm talking about

Well, no shit. :?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:31 pm

Tsmp wrote:Well, no shit. :?


Okay Gunnery Sgt. Hartman :P
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:48 pm

Tsmp wrote:I'm sorry, I don't ever talk about PvP against players who aren't at least my own skill level. You wouldn't know that though, so it's fine.
This. On ps3 my lv. 150 STR build got to rank3 at arena and I mainly used the GS, like 85% of time, when I wasn´t, I was fooling around with barbed club and chariot lance and whatnot.

Imo drake gaxe is a viable weapon + its fun to use. Large club/great club are viable, you can chain WR R1 to L1 L1.

Offcourse when an opponent never attacks 1st and tries very hard and you play aggro, you lose. Still those are viable.

Think I´ll do a list of viable weapon setups and combo abilities and chaining attacks in dks2, it´ ll be a long list as the diversity and versatility is vast.

Anyhow, if we think gaxe in dks1 or any weapon than mlgs/clay or chaos blade/uchi or curved sword, they are only good for stabbing. Dks2 returned attacking :shock:

You actually need to space and time your attacks and swing your weapon(s) :shock:

Fast stabs, fast controls and all the improvements from dks2 + how they continue to improve in dks3. hypehypehype :)
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:30 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:looking forward to your attempt to make UGS appear viable, if you can pull a higher than 40% win ratio against top tier players i will be impressed, but you have to remember your experience and take on the UGS is anecdotal and does not accurately depict the state of the game as a whole, which is what i'm talking about

I think, quite honestly, this "X weapon is better than Y weapon" is all completely pointless debate.

What you're trying to say is that two people of equal skill will have different outcomes because the potential of their weapons will be the deciding factor. The reason I think this is a bad claim is because a person who specializes in UGS and a person who specializes in Katanas can't have the same skill, because both weapons require a different kind of skill to use properly. Then, it really does come down to who plays better with their weapon of choice. Even if we take two players who specialize in both UGS and Katanas equally, both players know exactly what to watch out for and what to exploit. This subject is moot.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:25 am

Cam wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:looking forward to your attempt to make UGS appear viable, if you can pull a higher than 40% win ratio against top tier players i will be impressed, but you have to remember your experience and take on the UGS is anecdotal and does not accurately depict the state of the game as a whole, which is what i'm talking about

I think, quite honestly, this "X weapon is better than Y weapon" is all completely pointless debate.

What you're trying to say is that two people of equal skill will have different outcomes because the potential of their weapons will be the deciding factor. The reason I think this is a bad claim is because a person who specializes in UGS and a person who specializes in Katanas can't have the same skill, because both weapons require a different kind of skill to use properly. Then, it really does come down to who plays better with their weapon of choice. Even if we take two players who specialize in both UGS and Katanas equally, both players know exactly what to watch out for and what to exploit. This subject is moot.


Well this whole debate started because someone claimed a great build diversity in DKS2 which i disagree with and i think i'm being misinterpreted, i'm not saying certain weapons cannot be used to win, of course any weapon in the game can be used effectively with enough training and experience with said weapon, this is rhetorical and should be assumed when reading my posts.

What i am saying however is that while build diversity appears to be dense on the surface of DKS2, that game simply does not have very many builds that are viable in true competitive fashion, some builds and weapons simply outclass others on DKS2 due to the way stats are handled and the games imbalance and clunky controls. You can create anything you want on any souls game, and in a game like DKS or DeS this contrast was not there, what determined how much you won was mainly placed upon your skill level and your grasp on game mechanics. However in DKS2 certain builds and tactics simply work over others due to the way mechanics are tied to in game stats and the way controls were programmed, it's just how it is, if you think differently i'd like to see evidence or a real claim to the contrary, if you can get more than a 40% win ratio with a slow weapon class against skilled opponents i will be honestly impressed and i want to see this in action.

As for your last point, saying that a great UGS user and a great katana user will have different "skill sets" is really missing a major part of the whole picture, you're missing the part where it's stated that a UGS build is outclassed by a katana build by the inherent abilities of his class, i'm not claiming that either player is worse or better, just simply the UGS is going to struggle and will have to play a lot harder and a lot more skillfully to deal with the threat. Not only this, but i've never met anyone that only played with one weapon class that was top tier, in order to actually be proficient at PvP in any souls game, you have to also play with your opponents play style, as this teaches you the weaknesses and advantages and gives you a better understanding of the game as a whole.

If you're going to say a katana user and a UGS user both only stuck with their respective weapons for their entire play time then of course they will have different skill sets, but the katana has an eternal advantage due to the inheritance of his speed and build. This is the point.

Jumilaattori wrote: This. On ps3 my lv. 150 STR build got to rank3 at arena and I mainly used the GS, like 85% of time, when I wasn´t, I was fooling around with barbed club and chariot lance and whatnot.


*facepalm* arena is probably the single worst place to gather any evidence for skillful play or viable weapon builds :P
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:57 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:Well this whole debate started because someone claimed a great build diversity in DKS2 which i disagree with and i think i'm being misinterpreted, i'm not saying certain weapons cannot be used to win, of course any weapon in the game can be used effectively with enough training and experience with said weapon, this is rhetorical and should be assumed when reading my posts.

But specifically, I'm addressing your point about evenly matched players where the outcome supposedly is decided by the tiniest advantage.

Magicisoverrated wrote:What i am saying however is that while build diversity appears to be dense on the surface of DKS2, that game simply does not have very many builds that are viable in true competitive fashion, some builds and weapons simply outclass others on DKS2 due to the way stats are handled and the games imbalance and clunky controls. You can create anything you want on any souls game, and in a game like DKS or DeS this contrast was not there, what determined how much you won was mainly placed upon your skill level and your grasp on game mechanics. However in DKS2 certain builds and tactics simply work over others due to the way mechanics are tied to in game stats and the way controls were programmed, it's just how it is,

Actually, I'd argue this is more present in Dark Souls than Dark Souls II. For one thing, a player with a bastard sword and nothing else is probably not ever going to beat a Murakumo user familiar with dead angling and poise-stacking on skill alone. However, this is just my personal experience.

Magicisoverrated wrote:if you think differently i'd like to see evidence or a real claim to the contrary, if you can get more than a 40% win ratio with a slow weapon class against skilled opponents i will be honestly impressed and i want to see this in action.

This is vague. What's your definition of a skilled player?

Magicisoverrated wrote:As for your last point, saying that a great UGS user and a great katana user will have different "skill sets" is really missing a major part of the whole picture, you're missing the part where it's stated that a UGS build is outclassed by a katana build by the inherent abilities of his class, i'm not claiming that either player is worse or better, just simply the UGS is going to struggle and will have to play a lot harder and a lot more skillfully to deal with the threat. Not only this, but i've never met anyone that only played with one weapon class that was top tier, in order to actually be proficient at PvP in any souls game, you have to also play with your opponents play style, as this teaches you the weaknesses and advantages and gives you a better understanding of the game as a whole.

A person's skill at core fundamentals(spacing, timing, reading, etc) and a person's skill with a particular moveset are two subcategories of "skill" in this scenario. I know that player skill isn't static, it fluctuates, but for the sake of simplicity, let's just say it is "static". Am I incorrect in presuming your argument to be that the outcome of a duel between two players of completely equal core skills and moveset skills will be determined by weapon speed, the only thing between the two players that isn't dead even?

Magicisoverrated wrote:If you're going to say a katana user and a UGS user both only stuck with their respective weapons for their entire play time then of course they will have different skill sets, but the katana has an eternal advantage due to the inheritance of his speed and build. This is the point.

But the Katana also has inherent poise-break, hyperarmor and damage output disadvantages.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:28 am

Cam wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:Well this whole debate started because someone claimed a great build diversity in DKS2 which i disagree with and i think i'm being misinterpreted, i'm not saying certain weapons cannot be used to win, of course any weapon in the game can be used effectively with enough training and experience with said weapon, this is rhetorical and should be assumed when reading my posts.

But specifically, I'm addressing your point about evenly matched players where the outcome supposedly is decided by the tiniest advantage.

Magicisoverrated wrote:What i am saying however is that while build diversity appears to be dense on the surface of DKS2, that game simply does not have very many builds that are viable in true competitive fashion, some builds and weapons simply outclass others on DKS2 due to the way stats are handled and the games imbalance and clunky controls. You can create anything you want on any souls game, and in a game like DKS or DeS this contrast was not there, what determined how much you won was mainly placed upon your skill level and your grasp on game mechanics. However in DKS2 certain builds and tactics simply work over others due to the way mechanics are tied to in game stats and the way controls were programmed, it's just how it is,

Actually, I'd argue this is more present in Dark Souls than Dark Souls II. For one thing, a player with a bastard sword and nothing else is probably not ever going to beat a Murakumo user familiar with dead angling and poise-stacking on skill alone. However, this is just my personal experience.

Magicisoverrated wrote:if you think differently i'd like to see evidence or a real claim to the contrary, if you can get more than a 40% win ratio with a slow weapon class against skilled opponents i will be honestly impressed and i want to see this in action.

This is vague. What's your definition of a skilled player?

Magicisoverrated wrote:As for your last point, saying that a great UGS user and a great katana user will have different "skill sets" is really missing a major part of the whole picture, you're missing the part where it's stated that a UGS build is outclassed by a katana build by the inherent abilities of his class, i'm not claiming that either player is worse or better, just simply the UGS is going to struggle and will have to play a lot harder and a lot more skillfully to deal with the threat. Not only this, but i've never met anyone that only played with one weapon class that was top tier, in order to actually be proficient at PvP in any souls game, you have to also play with your opponents play style, as this teaches you the weaknesses and advantages and gives you a better understanding of the game as a whole.

A person's skill at core fundamentals(spacing, timing, reading, etc) and a person's skill with a particular moveset are two subcategories of "skill" in this scenario. I know that player skill isn't static, it fluctuates, but for the sake of simplicity, let's just say it is "static". Am I incorrect in presuming your argument to be that the outcome of a duel between two players of completely equal core skills and moveset skills will be determined by weapon speed, the only thing between the two players that isn't dead even?

Magicisoverrated wrote:If you're going to say a katana user and a UGS user both only stuck with their respective weapons for their entire play time then of course they will have different skill sets, but the katana has an eternal advantage due to the inheritance of his speed and build. This is the point.

But the Katana also has inherent poise-break, hyperarmor and damage output disadvantages.




The "tiniest advantage" thing translates into a major advantage over the course of the game, even something that seems small like more iframes can translate into a much greater win/loss ratio over other builds. I would argue that a tiny advantage is enough to make a game unbalanced, and noticeably over playing the game for an extended period of time, but i think we disagree on what's tiny and what is large in terms of competition.

But as for being misinterpreted, and i sort of expected this would happen if i used a specific example, you brought up the katana, i wasn't only talking about katana i'm speaking about DKS2 as a whole, every weapon has it's disadvantages but quicker builds have disadvantages that are not a problem in the current DKS2 meta, outlying information be damned, there will always be counter examples, but the major trend is what i'm speaking of, and when i say quick builds i mean all of them, not just the katana.

while speed is somewhat of a factor It's not just weapon speed, as i stated in my post, i will quote myself for clarity

Magicisoverrated wrote:some builds and weapons simply outclass others on DKS2 due to the way stats are handled and the games imbalance and clunky controls.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cam wrote:but for the sake of simplicity, let's just say it is "static"


Cam wrote:This is vague. What's your definition of a skilled player?


These two things i'm reluctant to engage you on as they are opening up my point for assault, mainly because no two people will ever agree on either of these topics, rarely ever will anyone agree on what is skill and what is not, we can have an objective conversation about what is skill and what isn't, it can roll down a hill hit a cow and explode, or it might break the 4th wall and tear a hole in reality, but simply, what is widely accepted as skillful is someone that wins consistently against everything without cheesing, and that's as much clarity as you'll get on the subject because there is no way we will agree on the topic. Nothing i can say about this will be anything more than opinion and personal belief, so instead i appeal to the middle ground, and while that may not be rational, especially for the sake of a debate, i already know that nobody in the world has a real accurate explanation on what "skill" is, and especially in terms of Dark Souls II so instead ill refer to the dictionary:

"An ability and capacity acquired through deliberate, systematic, and sustained effort to smoothly and adaptively carryout complex activities or job functions involving ideas (cognitive skills), things (technical skills), and/or people (interpersonal skills). See also competence."

Even THAT is vague :P

Now of course we can break down skill into something more easily tackled, for instance, what is a skilled estoc user? well someone with good reaction times, knows how to use his weapon to counter other builds, has a good sense of what another player is going to do based on their weapon choice, can time parries proactively and has a good mind game running. But this is all general and what comprises a good skilled game using an estoc will not translate to what makes a skilled game with a UGS, with katana, with magic, you're going to have to further break down the argument and tell me what makes each of these users skilled, and while there may be similarities here it doesn't mean that they would be the only things that create a skillful player.

The other is asking me to talk about a static situation which changes my argument into something it's not, static situations are just that, too specific to really consider the problem at hand. I'm talking about real in game issues, i'm not breaking issues down into their components and talking about every different weapon and sub categorizing skill, this doesn't make sense and it doesn't accomplish anything other than to re-specify the argument into a series of micro debates.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:38 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:The "tiniest advantage" thing translates into a major advantage over the course of the game, even something that seems small like more iframes can translate into a much greater win/loss ratio over other builds. I would argue that a tiny advantage is enough to make a game unbalanced, and noticeably over playing the game for an extended period of time, but i think we disagree on what's tiny and what is large in terms of competition.

I agree that advantages make it easier to win on some level regardless of skill. I just disagree that if you were to hypothetically take two so-called masters of the game and give them a fast weapon and a slow weapon, the fast weapon would be the decider.

Magicisoverrated wrote:But as for being misinterpreted, and i sort of expected this would happen if i used a specific example, you brought up the katana, i wasn't only talking about katana i'm speaking about DKS2 as a whole, every weapon has it's disadvantages but quicker builds have disadvantages that are not a problem in the current DKS2 meta, outlying information be damned, there will always be counter examples, but the major trend is what i'm speaking of, and when i say quick builds i mean all of them, not just the katana.

Oh, no. I was just using the Katana as a simplified example, myself. Sorry for the confusion.

Magicisoverrated wrote:while speed is somewhat of a factor It's not just weapon speed, as i stated in my post, i will quote myself for clarity

This might actually be where the misinterpretation lies. I was under the impression your argument was all about weapon speed. If we're talking about stat speed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. That the stat spreads are off-balance and some weapons hit harder or lighter than their animation should imply? I'm not entirely sure what you mean, here. If you could elaborate..?

Magicisoverrated wrote:These two things i'm reluctant to engage you on as they are opening up my point for assault, mainly because no two people will ever agree on either of these topics, rarely ever will anyone agree on what is skill and what is not, we can have an objective conversation about what is skill and what isn't, it can roll down a hill hit a cow and explode, or it might break the 4th wall and tear a hole in reality, but simply, what is widely accepted as skillful is someone that wins consistently against everything without cheesing, and that's as much clarity as you'll get on the subject because there is no way we will agree on the topic. Nothing i can say about this will be anything more than opinion and personal belief, so instead i appeal to the middle ground, and while that may not be rational, especially for the sake of a debate, i already know that nobody in the world has a real accurate explanation on what "skill" is, and especially in terms of Dark Souls II so instead ill refer to the dictionary:

I was simply asking what "your" parameters for a skilled person were in this scenario, since you put it out there as a challenge. I wasn't planning to argue the semantics of it. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Magicisoverrated wrote:Now of course we can break down skill into something more easily tackled, for instance, what is a skilled estoc user? well someone with good reaction times, knows how to use his weapon to counter other builds, has a good sense of what another player is going to do based on their weapon choice, can time parries proactively and has a good mine game running. But this is all general and what comprises a good skilled game using an estoc will not translate to what makes a skilled game with a UGS, with katana, with magic, you're going to have to further break down the argument and tell me what makes each of these users skilled, and while there may be similarities here it doesn't mean that they would be the only things that create a skillful player.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Two people can't really have the exact same skill, because the skills required to use different weapons is notably different. Thus two people can never be in a situation where they're so dead-even that only the smallest advantage decides the victor, which I presumed to be your argument when you made the chess analogy.

Magicisoverrated wrote:The other is asking me to talk about a static situation which changes my argument into something it's not, static situations are just that, too specific to really consider the problem at hand. I'm talking about real in game issues

Oh, I just simplified things to be clear on what your actual point was. Your posts and my responses are long, and it's easy to get swept away from the core points that each other is trying to make. At least, it is for me. Simplifying momentarily is a good way to get back on track.

Magicisoverrated wrote:i'm not breaking issues down into their components and talking about every different weapon and sub categorizing skill, this doesn't make sense and it doesn't accomplish anything other than to re-specify the argument into a series of micro debates.
Breaking things down is a good way to get to the bottom of things, so that's what I did, and I concluded this whole subject was moot, and so far we've demonstrated that to be so. Would it be fair to say "agree to disagree" and possibly get back on to the original topic, or move this to a more fitting thread?
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:17 am

Cam wrote:I agree that advantages make it easier to win on some level regardless of skill. I just disagree that if you were to hypothetically take two so-called masters of the game and give them a fast weapon and a slow weapon, the fast weapon would be the decider.


i must refer to:

The "tiniest advantage" thing translates into a major advantage over the course of the game, even something that seems small like more iframes can translate into a much greater win/loss ratio over other builds. I would argue that a tiny advantage is enough to make a game unbalanced, and noticeably over playing the game for an extended period of time, but i think we disagree on what's tiny and what is large in terms of competition. -myself


Cam wrote:This might actually be where the misinterpretation lies. I was under the impression your argument was all about weapon speed. If we're talking about stat speed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. That the stat spreads are off-balance and some weapons hit harder or lighter than their animation should imply? I'm not entirely sure what you mean, here. If you could elaborate..?


The misinterpretation lies with you. There's some serious stretches in logic in this i'm not going to acknowledge, if you actually wanted to have a debate you should read everything first, so i quote myself:

some builds and weapons simply outclass others on DKS2 due to the way stats are handled and the games imbalance and clunky controls. -myself

My debate was not just about weapon speed, far from it case in point.

Cam wrote:I was simply asking what "your" parameters for a skilled person were in this scenario, since you put it out there as a challenge.


You're reading tone in my argument where there is none, also what does defining skill on these terms solve?

Cam wrote:This is pretty much what I was going to say. Two people can't really have the exact same skill, because the skills required to use different weapons is notably different. Thus two people can never be in a situation where they're so dead-even that only the smallest advantage decides the victor, which I presumed to be your argument when you made the chess analogy.


The chess analogy was to say that DKS2 has builds with distinct disadvantages, black vs white, black is at a disadvantage, the same can be said for the trends in DKS2 when considering "quick" vs "slow" builds, both can win, but one has a noticeable advantage, while chess does not offer many different ways to approach it, it was to point out that just because someone uses a weapon and has skill, doesn't mean that weapon is going to win consistently due to the inherent imbalance of the game. And again we disagree on what is small and large in terms of competitive play.

Cam wrote:Oh, I just simplified things to be clear on what your actual point was. Your posts and my responses are long, and it's easy to get swept away from the core points that each other is trying to make. At least, it is for me. Simplifying momentarily is a good way to get back on track.


you broke down my argument into something simple to change its meaning and make it easier to assault on your terms, if the goal was to get back on track, you derailed it.

Cam wrote:Breaking things down is a good way to get to the bottom of things, so that's what I did, and I concluded this whole subject was moot, and so far we've demonstrated that to be so. Would it be fair to say "agree to disagree" and possibly get back on to the original topic, or move this to a more fitting thread?


This depends, in your case no. What you did was you broke down my argument and wanted me to define things like "skill" and numerous other things you didn't acknowledge in reading, you read tone in my argument and turned the debate into something it was not, you misrepresent my argument in doing so and attack it in ways that avoid the point due to no fault of my own. I will have to hit you up on agreeing to disagree as with the stance you've taken to assault me with leaves no other recourse.

I also don't understand the issue here with appealing to the topic of the thread, sure we can praise the topic until the end of time, what's the fun in that? talking about DKS2 and bloodborne spawned a constructive argument, but if you feel that it was off topic then why did you engage in it in such a way that warranted giving you specific responses?

But whatever, hype for DKS3 yaaay
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:23 am

I just beat a good solid player who double buffed and had 2H ice raper with full havel, with drake gaxe and full lion warrior without buffs :?
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:57 am

I like this new person. We haven't had a discussion like this in a long, long time. Anyways, yeah this thread has been wildly derailed. Let's bring it back around.

So, what needs to change about Ultra Greatswords to make them better in Dark Souls 3 while still keeping them identifiable as Ultra Greatswords? I'm talking about their generally slow startup animations, long reach, hyperarmor, poise-breaking abilities, damage, you know. Do we have any footage of them yet, either as player or boss/enemy weapons?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:23 am

Tsmp wrote:I like this new person. We haven't had a discussion like this in a long, long time. Anyways, yeah this thread has been wildly derailed. Let's bring it back around.

So, what needs to change about Ultra Greatswords to make them better in Dark Souls 3 while still keeping them identifiable as Ultra Greatswords? I'm talking about their generally slow startup animations, long reach, hyperarmor, poise-breaking abilities, damage, you know. Do we have any footage of them yet, either as player or boss/enemy weapons?


This one is rough..

i feel that making the controls more responsive and eliminating that agility stat will see a significant increase in the viability and use of UGS even to the point of making them overpowered with poise. The problem is UGS class is like an even slower heavy weapon than normal which is completely out of place in a game that requires timing and skillful dodging but of course that should be rewarded with incredibly high damage output, but this could be exploited easily if implemented incorrectly. I'm just going to trust that the team working on DKS3 has been paying attention to what works and what doesn't and can come up with something fresh and awesome while at the time actually paying attention to balance.

But then again this isn't a competitive fighting game at heart, so i fully expect the same rodeo which is half the fun anyway :P
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby DidoRumbus » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:31 am

Heh sry I can't resist some further derail :)

You have to think of "builds" in DkS2 differently than the other games due to lack of SL meta (unless of course you are sticking to old SL caps). Builds are not defined by stats, they are defined by gear (weapons, armour, rings, buffs) and substats that are derived from gear. Agility (iframes) is derived from stats, not gear -- there is no reason to have less than 100 (20 ATN / 20 ADP), 105 (25/25), or even 110 (30/30) agility. There is no iframe tradeoff in kat build vs UGS build. Excluding magic (spells and stuff, not you magic :P ), the tradeoffs are (off the top of my head, sry if I'm forgetting):
  • HP: rings (life, TDR).
  • Weapon AR: weapon type, buffs, and rings (blades, flynn, clutch, stone, leo, red tear).
  • Weapon Damage: AR split (infusions, clutch rings).
  • Weapon Moveset: weapon type (this would also include combos with secondary weapons).
  • Defences: armour, buffs, rings (quartz).
  • Poise: armour, buff (iron flesh), ring (giant).
  • Roll speed / burden: armour, ring (royal soldier, TDR).
  • Stamina: ring (TDR).
  • Stamina regen: sheilds, ring (chloranthy), buff (grass).
I am 100% behind magic that a 2H kat has an inherent advantage over a 2H UGS build and for 2 equally "skilled" players kat will win a high percentage of the time. I'm terribly out of practice but I will still win most of those setups. But good luck finding a good player that only uses UGS without backups or offhand. Hell why not LH kat RH UGS!? It's all about combos/setups (and don't forget DW) and this is where DkS2 shines IMO.

So back on topic -- I think the best way for heavy weaps to work is poise (tank/trade hits). Poise should not be derived from armour -- it should either be a hidden stat specific to each weapon (hyper armour) or derived from stats (heavy weapon user needs STR and END to use it, and VIT to carry it, so why not derive poise from these stats?).
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:13 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:Heh sry I can't resist some further derail :)

You have to think of "builds" in DkS2 differently than the other games due to lack of SL meta (unless of course you are sticking to old SL caps). Builds are not defined by stats, they are defined by gear (weapons, armour, rings, buffs) and substats that are derived from gear. Agility (iframes) is derived from stats, not gear -- there is no reason to have less than 100 (20 ATN / 20 ADP), 105 (25/25), or even 110 (30/30) agility. There is no iframe tradeoff in kat build vs UGS build. Excluding magic (spells and stuff, not you magic :P ), the tradeoffs are (off the top of my head, sry if I'm forgetting):
  • HP: rings (life, TDR).
  • Weapon AR: weapon type, buffs, and rings (blades, flynn, clutch, stone, leo, red tear).
  • Weapon Damage: AR split (infusions, clutch rings).
  • Weapon Moveset: weapon type (this would also include combos with secondary weapons).
  • Defences: armour, buffs, rings (quartz).
  • Poise: armour, buff (iron flesh), ring (giant).
  • Roll speed / burden: armour, ring (royal soldier, TDR).
  • Stamina: ring (TDR).
  • Stamina regen: sheilds, ring (chloranthy), buff (grass).
I am 100% behind magic that a 2H kat has an inherent advantage over a 2H UGS build and for 2 equally "skilled" players kat will win a high percentage of the time. I'm terribly out of practice but I will still win most of those setups. But good luck finding a good player that only uses UGS without backups or offhand. Hell why not LH kat RH UGS!? It's all about combos/setups (and don't forget DW) and this is where DkS2 shines IMO.

So back on topic -- I think the best way for heavy weaps to work is poise (tank/trade hits). Poise should not be derived from armour -- it should either be a hidden stat specific to each weapon (hyper armour) or derived from stats (heavy weapon user needs STR and END to use it, and VIT to carry it, so why not derive poise from these stats?).


If we're accounting for specific Soul Memory ranges, then yes builds in Dark Souls 2 still have stat limitations. It's much more loose than in the other games, but it's there nonetheless. Try making a level 400 do-everything character with only 1.5-2 million souls to work with.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby DidoRumbus » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:04 pm

Tsmp wrote:If we're accounting for specific Soul Memory ranges, then yes builds in Dark Souls 2 still have stat limitations. It's much more loose than in the other games, but it's there nonetheless. Try making a level 400 do-everything character with only 1.5-2 million souls to work with.

Stats start to become irrelevant at about 250, not 400. SM restriction is only relevant for 2 very specific types of PvP:
  1. Low-SM invading. Weapon matchups are not important, your goal here is to mess with PvE players. But you're absolutely right, stats are really important as is how you spend your souls (agape, etc).
  2. PVP events with max SM enforced by host. This is no longer relevant for me, but if it's your thing then yeah, stat restriction is a factor. Are people still playing the game this way?
If you are just looking to fight other players (good players) then SM restriction is a thing of the past.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Rollo-9 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:19 pm

Tsmp wrote:I like this new person. We haven't had a discussion like this in a long, long time. Anyways, yeah this thread has been wildly derailed. Let's bring it back around.

So, what needs to change about Ultra Greatswords to make them better in Dark Souls 3 while still keeping them identifiable as Ultra Greatswords? I'm talking about their generally slow startup animations, long reach, hyperarmor, poise-breaking abilities, damage, you know. Do we have any footage of them yet, either as player or boss/enemy weapons?


I read that Miyazaki mentioned Guts from Berserk when discussing the demos UGS move set. So be prepared to swing it around like a long sword 1 handed :D .

The slow strength weapons have gotten some fixes over the last two games though, DkS 2 added much more varied movesets for a start, and Bloodborne's strength weapons made the movesets more effective , even in that super fast paced environment. The obvious fix would be, like bloodborne, nerf the bs so you can't rbs every swing, that along with hyper armor and effective movesets (the hitzone and speed of the Hunter axes extented sweeps for example) should sort out the faults.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:57 pm

In des and dks1 katana was great. In dks2 katana is good not great.

The GS vs katana:

Outside vs inside. Katana swings outside, misses and is locked to animation which the GS punishes brutally from the outside. That´s 1k dmg. The GS can follow up with a jump attack.

Let´s add bonefist to the setup and the GS now controls outside and inside with parry deterrence.

The GS can combo 2nd R1 to L1 L1.

:)

What about scythes? I hear they are pretty crazy in dks3 but when you think how good they are in dks2, no wonder.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:06 am

DidoRumbus wrote:You have to think of "builds" in DkS2 differently than the other games due to lack of SL meta (unless of course you are sticking to old SL caps). Builds are not defined by stats, they are defined by gear


DidoRumbus wrote:It's all about combos/setups (and don't forget DW) and this is where DkS2 shines IMO.


Spot on. Man that versatility and viable setups, did you get to max tier yet? I want to show you my latest setups, lumberjack and reaper :)
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:20 am

Thank you everyone who participated in this debate, it's rare to find a forum full of mature individuals who can handle a constructive argument without flailing their arms in terrifying rage. I look forward to more of this with DKS3 release and DLCs, the best way to learn about something is to hear and accept differing opinions and be willing to try them out, that kind of mentality is what makes this community a cut above the rest in my opinion.

I think we have mostly concluded in the argument that DKS2 is imbalanced and players are unhappy with many of the design choices in combat, though it can still be fun in it's own way i believe everyone is ready for a new souls to come along and fix everything that went wrong with DKS2.

Will that be DKS3? well heres hoping

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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby DidoRumbus » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:33 am

Jumilaattori wrote:Spot on. Man that versatility and viable setups, did you get to max tier yet? I want to show you my latest setups, lumberjack and reaper :)

Haha lumberjack, DkS2 needs red plaid armour set! I max tiered my first character, and constant action at iron keep, it's great. My girlfriend has been playing another character lately while I'm away for work, she's ~2m SM and same thing, constant connections. This is what bloodborne is missing! Game mechanics aside, give us a reliable and FAST way to connect, and then work out the PvP issues via patches. I still prefer level-based builds since I enjoy the planning and stat optimization aspect (DkS1 did this well if you can look past BS = win), but DkS2 PvP has come quite a long way from last year, that's for sure. Anyway when I get back in July I'll msg ya, lumberjack vs mundane thief :) Why they had to "fix" mundane ruler's sword!?

Magicisoverrated wrote:Thank you everyone who participated in this debate, it's rare to find a forum full of mature individuals who can handle a constructive argument without flailing their arms in terrifying rage. I look forward to more of this with DKS3 release and DLCs, the best way to learn about something is to hear and accept differing opinions and be willing to try them out, that kind of mentality is what makes this community a cut above the rest in my opinion.

You said it! Let's be honest, who here won't be buying DkS3 day 1 :D
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:08 am

DidoRumbus wrote:You said it! Let's be honest, who here won't be buying DkS3 day 1 :D

If nothing else, I plan to buy it day one and stream it, if only so other people can make a more informed decision.

I keep saying I'll do that, but this time I know how to do everything so it should happen.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:34 am

DidoRumbus wrote:Haha lumberjack, DkS2 needs red plaid armour set! I max tiered my first character, and constant action at iron keep, it's great. My girlfriend has been playing another character lately while I'm away for work, she's ~2m SM and same thing, constant connections. This is what bloodborne is missing! Game mechanics aside, give us a reliable and FAST way to connect, and then work out the PvP issues via patches. I still prefer level-based builds since I enjoy the planning and stat optimization aspect (DkS1 did this well if you can look past BS = win), but DkS2 PvP has come quite a long way from last year, that's for sure. Anyway when I get back in July I'll msg ya, lumberjack vs mundane thief :) Why they had to "fix" mundane ruler's sword!?
I want a forest area with lumberjacks working and they aggro and go crazy and attack when you interfere with their timbering to dks3, they could drop lumberjack set and dif types of axes and whatnot hehe and flails as a new weapon class!

More and more players come to ps4 version, its madness and I like the vibe, good fights, good players and always a few free for all and 2 v 2 etc.

I´ve enjoyed max tier a lot, I think SL matching and stopping to lv 120 in a game that goes to 600+ as an example is outdated. Like BB has 1-2 weapons per build. Why can´t it be SL 220 for say? I could use 15 weapons with my build. Don´t need to run pve and make new toons to use 1-2 new weapons. More ehp = loenger fights. More options = more diversity. I would even have a reason to play pve and dump souls to something else than bullets and vials.

SM is actually brilliant and I´ve used 12 soul vessels, out of them. I can still tinker with stats. Do I want 105,110 or 115 agl or to max it. 10 vit or 60+? 50 or 99 vgr. 34-99 end? 40-99 str? How much atn and what spells do I want to use.

Players are not divided by SL but everyone can meet. You gain souls from PvP and can lv up. You get a bit more powerful from stats and its cool. Basic lv 225 can compete so its all good. You can gather weapons, do pve for pvp (farming) and use anything you like with the same toon, I love it :)

If I´d make a new toon it´d be for the challenge to fight with 150 at max tier and lv up to xxx lv with PvP souls again.

Fuck ruler sword, go grab majestic gs and place it to your lh. 2H strong atk is crazy + they usually eat another 1st L2 after or L1 combo, 2k+ dmg easy haha, nasty.

I think 60 fps makes a huge difference and all those patches offcourse, earlier I said that imo drake gaxe is viable, now I´ve been using it a week and its my favourite weapon atm and I think its very good.

Till july buddy.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby chefchucko » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:34 am

I would LOVE to see flails as a new weapon type. My favorite combo in DkS1 was the guardian tail off hand with the large club to have fun with posion, and off hand whips were always good. I'm more of a fan of STR vs DEX, so having a heavy whip like weapon....dream come true. I just wish the Grims that have the anvil on a chain would drop that weapon in DkS2.

Whips are fun, I'd love to see them get specific backstab/riposte animations that make sense, rather than just punching someone with the whip. Choke the enemy with the whip for a minute, makes more sense....something like that.

Make a Sauron build have a spike ball on a chain and a great hammer....
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby chefchucko » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:34 am

I would LOVE to see flails as a new weapon type. My favorite combo in DkS1 was the guardian tail off hand with the large club to have fun with posion, and off hand whips were always good. I'm more of a fan of STR vs DEX, so having a heavy whip like weapon....dream come true. I just wish the Grims that have the anvil on a chain would drop that weapon in DkS2.

Whips are fun, I'd love to see them get specific backstab/riposte animations that make sense, rather than just punching someone with the whip. Choke the enemy with the whip for a minute, makes more sense....something like that.

Make a Sauron build have a spike ball on a chain and a great hammer....
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:00 am

As long as we're talking about weapon ideas we want to see, I saw someone post an idea for a book weapon on /bbg/. Specifically, Yharnam's equivalent of the necronomicon. It's L1 is to open the book and start reading it, which causes your frenzy meter to start rising.

I've no idea what it would do, but then again that's kind of the fun of it.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby chefchucko » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:52 am

Frenzy would be so OP in PvP, i'm not sure how you could balance it without everyone crying about it.
I can see the trolling videos already, rush the game low level, messenger gift plus frenzy book then AOE everyone with it and everyone cries.

Fun idea, but hard to pull off without being a big problem.

Maybe if it frenzied the user as well, but then the user would just use hi frenzy resist.

That being said, I wish different oaths made you align with either beast or kin types so the cursed gems would impact pvp. Or beast hunter gems would have value to a pvp weapon.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:31 am

chefchucko wrote:Frenzy would be so OP in PvP, i'm not sure how you could balance it without everyone crying about it.
I can see the trolling videos already, rush the game low level, messenger gift plus frenzy book then AOE everyone with it and everyone cries.

Fun idea, but hard to pull off without being a big problem.

Maybe if it frenzied the user as well, but then the user would just use hi frenzy resist.

That being said, I wish different oaths made you align with either beast or kin types so the cursed gems would impact pvp. Or beast hunter gems would have value to a pvp weapon.

No, I meant it only frenzies the user, because you're trying to read a book of eldritch alien lore. Not sure what it would use for attacks, though.

Edit: I've also figured beast and kin effects applying in PvP would help balance out those stronger cursed tempering gems a bit, though I was thinking less about runes and more about having beasthood active would trigger vs beast effects. Not sure what would trigger vs kin effects, maybe either passing a certain insight threshold or a kin equivalent of beasthood.

Oath runes though, that could be interesting. There's already a vileblood oath rune, though it doesn't trigger the damage boost some weapons get against vileblood enemies. Which would be a bit extreme if it did, considering those can get up to +50% and that stacks with gems, so obviously that would have to be rebalanced a bit for PvP. The only problem with the idea is, being oath runes, they'd need a multiplayer effect of some sort. Corruption(Vileblood) gives blood dregs from player kills, Radiance(Executioner) forces hostility against Corruption in co-op, and Hunter(Hunter of Hunters)... I think it has a >50% chance of forcing hostility against sinister bell users? What would a kin or beast oath rune do?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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