What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

General discussion of all things Bloodborne

Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:09 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:So basically it's not contempt, Bloodborne is a good game for sure, but the final product made any sort of real competitive PvP impossible to setup and the combat is extremely simplistic. It has plenty of fresh ideas and it is a fun game, just lacks souls level depth. But besides that? great game.

You said it was impossible. That is decidedly different from being needlessly obtuse.

Be fair though, the obtuse part only lasts as long as it takes to do it the first time. Meaning, the obtuse part is well over with by now because people have already created several functional dungeons, as you have said yourself. We could, right this moment, take any one of these arenas and get directly to fighting.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:25 pm

Tsmp wrote:You said it was impossible. That is decidedly different from being needlessly obtuse.


edit* okay someone pointed the quote out to me so ill quote myself

magicisoverrated wrote:real competitive PvP impossible to setup and the combat is extremely simplistic.


I guess i should have made it more obvious i was exaggerating, but for all intents and purposes unless you seek it out and browse the internet for ways to set it up it is generally impossible, but of course it can be done.

Tsmp wrote:Be fair though, the obtuse part only lasts as long as it takes to do it the first time. Meaning, the obtuse part is well over with by now because people have already created several functional dungeons, as you have said yourself. We could, right this moment, take any one of these arenas and get directly to fighting.


I agree, but it doesn't solve numerous other issues Bloodborne has, including to how closed off fight clubs are, it doesn't matter how popular your glyph is it still could never be as popular as a location like iron bridge could be. Not even touching on the core mechanics that make it objectively worse than all other souls games.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:28 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Be fair though, the obtuse part only lasts as long as it takes to do it the first time. Meaning, the obtuse part is well over with by now because people have already created several functional dungeons, as you have said yourself. We could, right this moment, take any one of these arenas and get directly to fighting.


I agree, but it doesn't solve numerous other issues Bloodborne has, including to how closed off fight clubs are, it doesn't matter how popular your glyph is it still could never be as popular as a location like iron bridge could be. Not even touching on the core mechanics that make it objectively worse than all other souls games.

Eugh, Iron Bridge was a terrible place for fighting. The only reason it was popular at all was due to the sheer convenience of the location.

However, there is in fact such a place in Bloodborne: quite a while ago, someone created the dungeon "hizzngr3". It is a depth 1 Pthumeru dungeon, created and used purely for being quick and easy to get to. It isn't even a Sinister dungeon, it's just the first available root dungeon in the game.

hizzngr3 is used by pretty much everyone as the Iron Bridge of Bloodborne. You can go there right now and get a fight with any of the hundreds of people at any given time, just mind the wagon that's kind of sort of off to the side. This is the place you often see in PvP videos on Youtube, by the way.

We could talk about the core mechanics of Bloodborne all day, (or week, as it's shaping up to be), but don't forget that Demon's Souls actually only had 4-5 viable builds at the height of its PvP scene, and Dark Souls only had 1 and one half viable builds for the first two months or so after release before they patched the giant masks, elemental weapons, and dark wood grain ring. If anything, Bloodborne has more build diversity in its PvP scene than either Demon's Souls or Dark Souls 1 at the same point in time after their releases; the Skl/Blt hybrid, pure Skl, pure Blt, Str/Arc hybrid and pure Arc are all considered viable builds with unique playstyles. Two of those builds don't even use guns, which is crazier than saying there are builds in Dark Souls that don't try parrying. The Flamesprayer/Rosmarinus actually makes for a really good backup weapon, able to catch opponents through their dodges and counter parry fishing from non-bloodtinge builds, whereas the wooden Shield disproves its own flavor text by actually being a made-to-order counter against bullets. Both see frequent use in hizzngr3 or the Nightmare areas, the first of which is the designated duels/fightclub area of the game and the other includes the most popular invasion areas due to their natural bell maidens.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:29 pm

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Be fair though, the obtuse part only lasts as long as it takes to do it the first time. Meaning, the obtuse part is well over with by now because people have already created several functional dungeons, as you have said yourself. We could, right this moment, take any one of these arenas and get directly to fighting.


I agree, but it doesn't solve numerous other issues Bloodborne has, including to how closed off fight clubs are, it doesn't matter how popular your glyph is it still could never be as popular as a location like iron bridge could be. Not even touching on the core mechanics that make it objectively worse than all other souls games.

Eugh, Iron Bridge was a terrible place for fighting. The only reason it was popular at all was due to the sheer convenience of the location.

However, there is in fact such a place in Bloodborne: quite a while ago, someone created the dungeon "hizzngr3". It is a depth 1 Pthumeru dungeon, created and used purely for being quick and easy to get to. It isn't even a Sinister dungeon, it's just the first available root dungeon in the game.

hizzngr3 is used by pretty much everyone as the Iron Bridge of Bloodborne. You can go there right now and get a fight with any of the hundreds of people at any given time, just mind the wagon that's kind of sort of off to the side. This is the place you often see in PvP videos on Youtube, by the way.

We could talk about the core mechanics of Bloodborne all day, (or week, as it's shaping up to be), but don't forget that Demon's Souls actually only had 4-5 viable builds at the height of its PvP scene, and Dark Souls only had 1 and one half viable builds for the first two months or so after release before they patched the giant masks, elemental weapons, and dark wood grain ring. If anything, Bloodborne has more build diversity in its PvP scene than either Demon's Souls or Dark Souls 1 at the same point in time after their releases; the Skl/Blt hybrid, pure Skl, pure Blt, Str/Arc hybrid and pure Arc are all considered viable builds with unique playstyles. Two of those builds don't even use guns, which is crazier than saying there are builds in Dark Souls that don't try parrying. The Flamesprayer/Rosmarinus actually makes for a really good backup weapon, able to catch opponents through their dodges and counter parry fishing from non-bloodtinge builds, whereas the wooden Shield disproves its own flavor text by actually being a made-to-order counter against bullets. Both see frequent use in hizzngr3 or the Nightmare areas, the first of which is the designated duels/fightclub area of the game and the other includes the most popular invasion areas due to their natural bell maidens.




I'm going to give this a shot over the next coming weeks and provide youtube evidence as to what i dislike about bloodborne and/or what i've found i like about it. I don't like what I've seen thus far but instead of just talking about it, because that never seems to work, i'll put words into action and get some use out of my youtube channel instead.

- i can already tell you right now, and am preparing a video for now, the major issue with random invasions at least is bloodvial spam, it's worse than estus flask and harder to punish than grass was, this will be the topic of video uno.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:03 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm going to give this a shot over the next coming weeks and provide youtube evidence as to what i dislike about bloodborne and/or what i've found i like about it. I don't like what I've seen thus far but instead of just talking about it, because that never seems to work, i'll put words into action and get some use out of my youtube channel instead.

- i can already tell you right now, and am preparing a video for now, the major issue with random invasions at least is bloodvial spam, it's worse than estus flask and harder to punish than grass was, this will be the topic of video uno.


You are, of course, totally allowed to not like things about Bloodborne. I myself dislike several things about it. You can make a video if you really, really want to, but I shouldn't have to remind you that we are all in fact playing the same game and know exactly what you're trying to communicate. There is no confusion going on, simply disagreement.

Though, I don't recall being able to parry grass or block them with a numbing mist, nor am I aware of any way to get 99 blood vials in this game. IMO, if my opponent chooses to use a blood vial then I feel perfectly fine using my own blood vials, because that does appear to be the way they want to play... But that could just be the desensitization talking, because in Demon's Souls I absolutely would take the time to kill players through 198 grasses if I had to.

Estus Flasks, IMO, was only bad because invaders could not use it. Therefore, it was not fair. This is probably why I preferred abyss invasions in Dark Souls 2, because they allowed invaders to use Estus Flasks just like the host in addition to a whole bunch of other perfectly fair things, like the area enemies attacking invaders, additional invaders having a reason to kill other invaders instead of just the host, and hosts being unable to summon assistance.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:23 am

Tsmp wrote:
You are, of course, totally allowed to not like things about Bloodborne. I myself dislike several things about it. You can make a video if you really, really want to, but I shouldn't have to remind you that we are all in fact playing the same game and know exactly what you're trying to communicate. There is no confusion going on, simply disagreement.



I'm not saying i need to make videos to prove anything, nor am i making the videos just for the disagreement me and you are having, i just seem to run into disagreements over bloodborne pvp quite a bit and i think in the face of video evidence of what i run into it makes for a better conversation and it allows people to critique and analyze better what i'm talking about specifically.

That being said this video has absolutely nothing to do with any of that, but i find the glitch humorous :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RCTQlZqnQ
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:25 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm not saying i need to make videos to prove anything, nor am i making the videos just for the disagreement me and you are having, i just seem to run into disagreements over bloodborne pvp quite a bit and i think in the face of video evidence of what i run into it makes for a better conversation and it allows people to critique and analyze better what i'm talking about specifically.

That being said this video has absolutely nothing to do with any of that, but i find the glitch humorous :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RCTQlZqnQ


Ehh... it's just, I have experience with this sort of thing going south very quickly. It almost always starts and ends with people saying how it's your playstyle that's the problem and dismissing the point you're trying to make. And then the pointless arguments happen. It's at the point now where I cringe at the very idea of it.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:34 am

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm not saying i need to make videos to prove anything, nor am i making the videos just for the disagreement me and you are having, i just seem to run into disagreements over bloodborne pvp quite a bit and i think in the face of video evidence of what i run into it makes for a better conversation and it allows people to critique and analyze better what i'm talking about specifically.

That being said this video has absolutely nothing to do with any of that, but i find the glitch humorous :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RCTQlZqnQ


Ehh... it's just, I have experience with this sort of thing going south very quickly. It almost always starts and ends with people saying how it's your playstyle that's the problem and dismissing the point you're trying to make. And then the pointless arguments happen. It's at the point now where I cringe at the very idea of it.



If there is anyone in the world that can deal with criticism, it's definitely me. But i'm not making these videos to knock bloodborne, just to display with zero opinion what i'm talking about in game and provide numerous examples of it. haters gonna hate.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Astro_Train » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:35 am

if Dark Souls 3 combat reverts back to Dark Souls 1... how bout taking BS completely out of the PVP game... or have more armor that does not allow it like Jesters in Dark Souls 2...

Personally I preferred Dark Souls 1 combat over 2 for reasons people have already explained on this thread...
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:40 am

Astro_Train wrote:if Dark Souls 3 combat reverts back to Dark Souls 1... how bout taking BS completely out of the PVP game... or have more armor that does not allow it like Jesters in Dark Souls 2...


Backstabs have been a problem since Demon's Souls, I really have no idea why the devs have kept them in as long as they have, just being behind your enemy should not immediatly initiate a super OP move that forces the meta to evolve around it, i think Bloodborne is honestly the first game to get that mechanic right.

I already hear someone going "but backstabs were not a problem in DeS blah blah blah blah *honks horn*" so i'm going to just preemptively shut this down by listing all the tactics required to be able to compete with the best players on DeS and they are in order by skill required

?: wake up back stab

1.strafe back stab
2.rush back stab
3 counter strafe back stab
4.roll back stab
5.pivot back stab
6.counter roll back stab
7.counter pivot back stab

i bet i missed one but you get the point you know who you are.

Astro_Train wrote:Personally I preferred Dark Souls 1 combat over 2 for reasons people have already explained on this thread...


Dark Souls 2's combat actually improved on a lot of the flaws Dark Souls 1 had, and then for some reason included stats that increase your iframes and made everything more clunky, i honestly don't like either of them better than Demon's Souls but that's me.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:48 am

Astro_Train wrote:if Dark Souls 3 combat reverts back to Dark Souls 1... how bout taking BS completely out of the PVP game... or have more armor that does not allow it like Jesters in Dark Souls 2...

Personally I preferred Dark Souls 1 combat over 2 for reasons people have already explained on this thread...

There's a really easy way to make DS/DkS style backstabs more balanced; make general weapon movesets faster and adjust poise so that its sole function is to reduce stun time rather than completely remove it. I think it's been established that they're going back to DS style criticals, and I'm pretty sure movesets will be faster like Demon's Souls, so here's hoping they know what to do with poise. Having armor that negates a function from the combat system is actually a huge disservice.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby chefchucko » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:02 am

Did they announce anything about charged attacks for DS3? If so, the charge attack bs mechanic may very well make its way to DS.
If not, a simple fix is to use the push/kick function as the stun from behind to set up a BS.
Makes it so you can do a normal attack and not fish for a BS if you don't want to.
Makes it so if you want a BS you have to actually set it up and potentially miss damage an open attack from an R1 to land the kick.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:33 am

chefchucko wrote:Did they announce anything about charged attacks for DS3? If so, the charge attack bs mechanic may very well make its way to DS.
If not, a simple fix is to use the push/kick function as the stun from behind to set up a BS.
Makes it so you can do a normal attack and not fish for a BS if you don't want to.
Makes it so if you want a BS you have to actually set it up and potentially miss damage an open attack from an R1 to land the kick.

I recall hearing that the "weapon arts" were similar to charge attacks, but I'm not sure if the person saying it meant that they have to be charged to use or simply have a long wind-up. They also said it was used with the L2 button, which makes me wonder if you either can't parry with a weapon art on, or else need to be two-handing your weapon to use them. Leaning toward the latter, out of sheer hope.

No other mention of charged attacks has been made.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Astro_Train » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:23 pm

Magicsoveratted and Cam have valid points... removing it would be fine with me... but at same time balancing poise would also be a welcomed thing... I hope Miyazaki is reading these forums... 8-)
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:51 pm

Tsmp wrote:Eugh, Iron Bridge is a terrible place for fighting.
Fixed that for you. Narrow tight space is oukki doukki for me but for some reason 80% of ppl, need more colour and decorate the bridge with prisms, like the lava isn´t enough.

To bb:
I said 2 months ago that 150 and 99 vit, funny that it actually happened. B said: ppl will go for power instead. Now that I read what´s up, my 150 would be quality blood, all stats around 47-50. Holy blade and evelyn vs shield spam gun as bait, do chip dmg and then crushing guard with r1 spam :lol:

Vs non shield wdr1 wdr1, gun, wdr1, wdr1, gun

1-3hk matches that are pretty much wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 without backstabs doesen´t feel right. Stabs are nice in Pve but I´m glad dks3 is back to dks1/des style stabs, thought I´d prefer dks2 stabs if/when roll cancel most likely is gone for good.

Cause everything hurts so much and parry is easy and can be made from range and bullets from blood build hurt a lot its wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 and also cause quickstep is more idiotic than spamming backstep in dks2.

Chalices don´t feel like souls. I dislike the same layout and looting mats so that you can make a new dungeon that is just like the 20 previous ones. Still its prolly the best souls pve and the game has vibe, I said disturbing and disturbed + bosses are epic.

For me it boils down to doing pve for pve when in all other souls I´d do pve for pvp except in fiasko souls a.k.a dks1.

Looking forward on bb dlc and dks3.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:14 am

Jumilaattori wrote:I said 2 months ago that 150 and 99 vit, funny that it actually happened.



Mmmmm, no not quiet i went up to 150 and i couldn't find very many people to PvP with, i went up to 125 and things are starting to feel more balanced, Bloodtinge is still stronger but it's a doable fight. This game is definitely not DKS2, going up to 150 is not the answer and 99 vit gouge is moronic, all you'll end up seeing at 150 is 99 vit gouge chikage builds and they will still have an edge over everything else, only moreso. You definitely can't play BB PvP like any other souls game, you can't throw attacks out as bait, and you can't try to rush, it's imperative you pay attention and not throw out attacks that are free parries, it's not even close to the same mentality.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:09 am

It's rather silly, perhaps ironic, that the game with the quickest movesets and dodge ability carries the biggest risk for getting punished when attacking carelessly.

I know this is just a hypothetical that literally fixes nothing, but a reload animation per shot would fix so much without having to nerf an otherwise creative and interesting build. Since the demand for it is so broadly expressed, perhaps guns will be tweaked in a patch sometime in the future. I hope. This game is already losing steam rather quickly because of the "fun size" package of content we got with the game.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:35 am

Cam wrote:It's rather silly, perhaps ironic, that the game with the quickest movesets and dodge ability carries the biggest risk for getting punished when attacking carelessly.

I know this is just a hypothetical that literally fixes nothing, but a reload animation per shot would fix so much without having to nerf an otherwise creative and interesting build. Since the demand for it is so broadly expressed, perhaps guns will be tweaked in a patch sometime in the future. I hope. This game is already losing steam rather quickly because of the "fun size" package of content we got with the game.


I agree, the only thing holding back the combat is the way parries work imo, and it's a shame because it's the most beautiful souls to date.

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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:10 am

Jumilaattori wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Eugh, Iron Bridge is a terrible place for fighting.
Fixed that for you. Narrow tight space is oukki doukki for me but for some reason 80% of ppl, need more colour and decorate the bridge with prisms, like the lava isn´t enough.

To bb:
I said 2 months ago that 150 and 99 vit, funny that it actually happened. B said: ppl will go for power instead. Now that I read what´s up, my 150 would be quality blood, all stats around 47-50. Holy blade and evelyn vs shield spam gun as bait, do chip dmg and then crushing guard with r1 spam :lol:

Vs non shield wdr1 wdr1, gun, wdr1, wdr1, gun

1-3hk matches that are pretty much wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 without backstabs doesen´t feel right. Stabs are nice in Pve but I´m glad dks3 is back to dks1/des style stabs, thought I´d prefer dks2 stabs if/when roll cancel most likely is gone for good.

Cause everything hurts so much and parry is easy and can be made from range and bullets from blood build hurt a lot its wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 and also cause quickstep is more idiotic than spamming backstep in dks2.

Chalices don´t feel like souls. I dislike the same layout and looting mats so that you can make a new dungeon that is just like the 20 previous ones. Still its prolly the best souls pve and the game has vibe, I said disturbing and disturbed + bosses are epic.

For me it boils down to doing pve for pve when in all other souls I´d do pve for pvp except in fiasko souls a.k.a dks1.

Looking forward on bb dlc and dks3.

Iron Bridge has three colors: orange, grey, and bloom. :| Prism stones are sparkly and all, but they just don't match.

I see almost no people at level 150. I see far, far more people when hosting or invading at level 100.

Chalice dungeons... They're actually kind of growing on me, ever since it occurred to me that the dungeon layouts were often really, really similar to SMT: Nocture and old King's Field level designs, but with Bloodborne's bosses at the end. I've been finding all sorts of interesting stuff in them lately, like extremely rare enemy types, bosses spawning where a normal enemy would be, some bullshit chest trap where opening it causes two of those frenzy ghosts to immediately spawn on either side of you and chase you forever, special dungeons with poison absolutely everywhere (like hintertombs, but depth 5 instead), and other things that don't immediately spring to mind.

Oh, and this asshole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtecJ3uuorc

Honestly, the only real problems I have with them are the SRRC takes too much waiting and you don't get enough materials from one root dungeon to make another root dungeon.

So... yeah. Also looking forward to the DLC and hoping DaS3 is at least half as clunky as DaS2 was. DaS2 had several good ideas, but the world layout bugged me and leveling a character up to the point where they have 105 agility is such a drag after Bloodborne.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Cam » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:19 am

I had a thought the other day: I hope Dark Souls III has a ring like the DWGR that changes the roll animation into the quickstep, even if it's tuned back a bit to accommodate for.. Y'know, balance.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:39 am

Tsmp wrote:
Jumilaattori wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Eugh, Iron Bridge is a terrible place for fighting.
Fixed that for you. Narrow tight space is oukki doukki for me but for some reason 80% of ppl, need more colour and decorate the bridge with prisms, like the lava isn´t enough.

To bb:
I said 2 months ago that 150 and 99 vit, funny that it actually happened. B said: ppl will go for power instead. Now that I read what´s up, my 150 would be quality blood, all stats around 47-50. Holy blade and evelyn vs shield spam gun as bait, do chip dmg and then crushing guard with r1 spam :lol:

Vs non shield wdr1 wdr1, gun, wdr1, wdr1, gun

1-3hk matches that are pretty much wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 without backstabs doesen´t feel right. Stabs are nice in Pve but I´m glad dks3 is back to dks1/des style stabs, thought I´d prefer dks2 stabs if/when roll cancel most likely is gone for good.

Cause everything hurts so much and parry is easy and can be made from range and bullets from blood build hurt a lot its wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 wdr1 and also cause quickstep is more idiotic than spamming backstep in dks2.

Chalices don´t feel like souls. I dislike the same layout and looting mats so that you can make a new dungeon that is just like the 20 previous ones. Still its prolly the best souls pve and the game has vibe, I said disturbing and disturbed + bosses are epic.

For me it boils down to doing pve for pve when in all other souls I´d do pve for pvp except in fiasko souls a.k.a dks1.

Looking forward on bb dlc and dks3.

Iron Bridge has three colors: orange, grey, and bloom. :| Prism stones are sparkly and all, but they just don't match.

I see almost no people at level 150. I see far, far more people when hosting or invading at level 100.

Chalice dungeons... They're actually kind of growing on me, ever since it occurred to me that the dungeon layouts were often really, really similar to SMT: Nocture and old King's Field level designs, but with Bloodborne's bosses at the end. I've been finding all sorts of interesting stuff in them lately, like extremely rare enemy types, bosses spawning where a normal enemy would be, some bullshit chest trap where opening it causes two of those frenzy ghosts to immediately spawn on either side of you and chase you forever, special dungeons with poison absolutely everywhere (like hintertombs, but depth 5 instead), and other things that don't immediately spring to mind.

Oh, and this asshole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtecJ3uuorc

Honestly, the only real problems I have with them are the SRRC takes too much waiting and you don't get enough materials from one root dungeon to make another root dungeon.

So... yeah. Also looking forward to the DLC and hoping DaS3 is at least half as clunky as DaS2 was. DaS2 had several good ideas, but the world layout bugged me and leveling a character up to the point where they have 105 agility is such a drag after Bloodborne.


Holy shit, i've finally met someone else that actually played SMT: Nocturne. Did you do true demon ending? :ugeek:

But honestly, the two main issues besides bloodtinge for PvP in Bloodborne is easily the chalice dungeon farming and the way parries work. MMO mechanics in *mostly* singleplayer games just doesn't mesh well. You're forcing players to spend quite a bit of time to farm and grind just to compete in PvP, that doesn't really help the community at all. The MMO grind quality brings an aspect to souls i feel simply doesn't belong there.

Granted every souls game had a bit of a grind, but the community always found a way around it through dupe glitches or other methods. Hell, in Bloodborne you can't even drop anything to other players to help them out.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:24 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Iron Bridge has three colors: orange, grey, and bloom. :| Prism stones are sparkly and all, but they just don't match.

I see almost no people at level 150. I see far, far more people when hosting or invading at level 100.

Chalice dungeons... They're actually kind of growing on me, ever since it occurred to me that the dungeon layouts were often really, really similar to SMT: Nocture and old King's Field level designs, but with Bloodborne's bosses at the end. I've been finding all sorts of interesting stuff in them lately, like extremely rare enemy types, bosses spawning where a normal enemy would be, some bullshit chest trap where opening it causes two of those frenzy ghosts to immediately spawn on either side of you and chase you forever, special dungeons with poison absolutely everywhere (like hintertombs, but depth 5 instead), and other things that don't immediately spring to mind.

Oh, and this asshole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtecJ3uuorc

Honestly, the only real problems I have with them are the SRRC takes too much waiting and you don't get enough materials from one root dungeon to make another root dungeon.

So... yeah. Also looking forward to the DLC and hoping DaS3 is at least half as clunky as DaS2 was. DaS2 had several good ideas, but the world layout bugged me and leveling a character up to the point where they have 105 agility is such a drag after Bloodborne.


Holy shit, i've finally met someone else that actually played SMT: Nocturne. Did you do true demon ending? :ugeek:

But honestly, the two main issues besides bloodtinge for PvP in Bloodborne is easily the chalice dungeon farming and the way parries work. MMO mechanics in *mostly* singleplayer games just doesn't mesh well. You're forcing players to spend quite a bit of time to farm and grind just to compete in PvP, that doesn't really help the community at all. The MMO grind quality brings an aspect to souls i feel simply doesn't belong there.

Granted every souls game had a bit of a grind, but the community always found a way around it through dupe glitches or other methods. Hell, in Bloodborne you can't even drop anything to other players to help them out.


I'm sorry, I never actually finished Nocturne. My parents insisted on only buying Nintendo products when I was growing up, which means I didn't even get to touch a PS2 until I could buy one myself at the age of 19. And that's about when Demon's Souls came out, so there are still lots of games on my to-do list.

I don't think it's so much gem farming that ruins PvP or even the strength of perfect gems themselves, but the fact that there are cursed downsides that either don't apply at all in PvP or else are entirely irrelevant for the damage boost they provide (three +3% stamina cost curses will give you about one less attack altogether). A gem with +27.2% physical damage but -10% against beasts will only ever give that +27.2% in PvP. If there were cases where a player could count as a beast, there are times where that gem would only give +17.2%. Much more balanced, aye? Also, gem boosts stacking with each other gets out of hand very quickly. You'd think three +27.2% gems would total out to a +81.6% boost, but in practice the total is slightly over +102%. In order for cursed tempering gems to not dominate PvP the way they do now (without defeating the purpose of, you know, farming them and having them cursed in the first place), three things need to happen: the -kin and -beast penalties need to apply to players under certain conditions, the +stamina cost penalty needs to be more severe, and gems need to only boost the base and scaling AR of the weapon itself instead of multiplying its effect in after other gems. Part of the reason I'm hoping for an actual beast mode is because it could act as an indirect nerf to all the rank 19 cursed tempering gems that have -beast without actually changing the stats of the gem itself. Of course, that's only 1/2 to 1/3rd of them, but it'd still be an improvement.

As much as I want to agree that MMO grinding doesn't belong in Souls... it's kind of been there since day one. Bladestone may have been mitigated by duping and item trading, but bear in mind that dupe glitches were never part of the original design. FromSoftware fully intended for Bladestone farming to be a ridiculous, week-long grind. Dark Souls 1 was at least nice enough to remove the farming for upgrade materials by having one guaranteed slab per area, but you still had to farm for enemy weapons if you wanted to use a Balder Side Sword or something.

Interesting note, they actually made gem farming worse with the latest patch, in a way. Before, what gems a boss dropped were determined when the dungeon was created, meaning if you had a dungeon with Merciless Watchers who dropped a radial +27.2% cursed physical gem, they'd drop that every time you reload the dungeon and killed them again. If someone else made a dungeon with a Rom who dropped a radial cursed abyssal radial gem, you could download his dungeon, kill that Rom, and get the gem yourself. Now? Gem drops are decided when the boss is killed.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:36 am

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Iron Bridge has three colors: orange, grey, and bloom. :| Prism stones are sparkly and all, but they just don't match.

I see almost no people at level 150. I see far, far more people when hosting or invading at level 100.

Chalice dungeons... They're actually kind of growing on me, ever since it occurred to me that the dungeon layouts were often really, really similar to SMT: Nocture and old King's Field level designs, but with Bloodborne's bosses at the end. I've been finding all sorts of interesting stuff in them lately, like extremely rare enemy types, bosses spawning where a normal enemy would be, some bullshit chest trap where opening it causes two of those frenzy ghosts to immediately spawn on either side of you and chase you forever, special dungeons with poison absolutely everywhere (like hintertombs, but depth 5 instead), and other things that don't immediately spring to mind.

Oh, and this asshole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtecJ3uuorc

Honestly, the only real problems I have with them are the SRRC takes too much waiting and you don't get enough materials from one root dungeon to make another root dungeon.

So... yeah. Also looking forward to the DLC and hoping DaS3 is at least half as clunky as DaS2 was. DaS2 had several good ideas, but the world layout bugged me and leveling a character up to the point where they have 105 agility is such a drag after Bloodborne.


Holy shit, i've finally met someone else that actually played SMT: Nocturne. Did you do true demon ending? :ugeek:

But honestly, the two main issues besides bloodtinge for PvP in Bloodborne is easily the chalice dungeon farming and the way parries work. MMO mechanics in *mostly* singleplayer games just doesn't mesh well. You're forcing players to spend quite a bit of time to farm and grind just to compete in PvP, that doesn't really help the community at all. The MMO grind quality brings an aspect to souls i feel simply doesn't belong there.

Granted every souls game had a bit of a grind, but the community always found a way around it through dupe glitches or other methods. Hell, in Bloodborne you can't even drop anything to other players to help them out.


I'm sorry, I never actually finished Nocturne. My parents insisted on only buying Nintendo products when I was growing up, which means I didn't even get to touch a PS2 until I could buy one myself at the age of 19. And that's about when Demon's Souls came out, so there are still lots of games on my to-do list.

I don't think it's so much gem farming that ruins PvP or even the strength of perfect gems themselves, but the fact that there are cursed downsides that either don't apply at all in PvP or else are entirely irrelevant for the damage boost they provide (three +3% stamina cost curses will give you about one less attack altogether). A gem with +27.2% physical damage but -10% against beasts will only ever give that +27.2% in PvP. If there were cases where a player could count as a beast, there are times where that gem would only give +17.2%. Much more balanced, aye? Also, gem boosts stacking with each other gets out of hand very quickly. You'd think three +27.2% gems would total out to a +81.6% boost, but in practice the total is slightly over +102%. In order for cursed tempering gems to not dominate PvP the way they do now (without defeating the purpose of, you know, farming them and having them cursed in the first place), three things need to happen: the -kin and -beast penalties need to apply to players under certain conditions, the +stamina cost penalty needs to be more severe, and gems need to only boost the base and scaling AR of the weapon itself instead of multiplying its effect in after other gems. Part of the reason I'm hoping for an actual beast mode is because it could act as an indirect nerf to all the rank 19 cursed tempering gems that have -beast without actually changing the stats of the gem itself. Of course, that's only 1/2 to 1/3rd of them, but it'd still be an improvement.

As much as I want to agree that MMO grinding doesn't belong in Souls... it's kind of been there since day one. Bladestone may have been mitigated by duping and item trading, but bear in mind that dupe glitches were never part of the original design. FromSoftware fully intended for Bladestone farming to be a ridiculous, week-long grind. Dark Souls 1 was at least nice enough to remove the farming for upgrade materials by having one guaranteed slab per area, but you still had to farm for enemy weapons if you wanted to use a Balder Side Sword or something.

Interesting note, they actually made gem farming worse with the latest patch, in a way. Before, what gems a boss dropped were determined when the dungeon was created, meaning if you had a dungeon with Merciless Watchers who dropped a radial +27.2% cursed physical gem, they'd drop that every time you reload the dungeon and killed them again. If someone else made a dungeon with a Rom who dropped a radial cursed abyssal radial gem, you could download his dungeon, kill that Rom, and get the gem yourself. Now? Gem drops are decided when the boss is killed.


Too bad you never finished Nocturne, probably the last JRPG i played and one of the best.

As for what you're saying about bloodgems, that is sick. You're saying a gem will increase the base AR by 27%, then the next gem will increase the already 27% boosted AR by another 27%? that's quite disgusting and explains a lot honestly. Also, the "grind" in souls of course has always been there but no, they didn't intend bladestone to be a week long farm, only one enemy in the whole game drops it and while it's never been confirmed, i highly doubt that was intended moreso just oversight from the dev team.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:55 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Too bad you never finished Nocturne, probably the last JRPG i played and one of the best.

As for what you're saying about bloodgems, that is sick. You're saying a gem will increase the base AR by 27%, then the next gem will increase the already 27% boosted AR by another 27%? that's quite disgusting and explains a lot honestly. Also, the "grind" in souls of course has always been there but no, they didn't intend bladestone to be a week long farm, only one enemy in the whole game drops it and while it's never been confirmed, i highly doubt that was intended moreso just oversight from the dev team.


Yep, that's what I'm saying. Gems include the boosts provided by previous gems when adding in their own boosts.

It's hard to say how intentional anything was in Demon's Souls, since FromSoftware stopped patching it shortly before they began work on Dark Souls. I'm judging it that way only on the grounds that the game went from release until then without them changing the Bladestone drop rate.

Although, whatever their original intent may have been I doubt they'd do it that way again if they had a chance to remake Demon's Souls. All Souls games after it had enough materials lying around to fully upgrade any one weapon, no matter what path.
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Rest in pieces, Manus.

Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:37 pm

Tsmp wrote:Iron Bridge has three colors: orange, grey, and bloom. :| Prism stones are sparkly and all, but they just don't match.
:D

I usually try to arrange free for all by casting a lingering flame to crowd followed by firetempest or just jump the host when its full of prism stones. Getting eye cancer from that shit.

Tsmp wrote:Chalice dungeons... They're actually kind of growing on me, ever since it occurred to me that the dungeon layouts were often really, really similar to SMT: Nocture and old King's Field level designs, but with Bloodborne's bosses at the end. I've been finding all sorts of interesting stuff in them lately, like extremely rare enemy types, bosses spawning where a normal enemy would be, some bullshit chest trap where opening it causes two of those frenzy ghosts to immediately spawn on either side of you and chase you forever, special dungeons with poison absolutely everywhere (like hintertombs, but depth 5 instead), and other things that don't immediately spring to mind.

Oh, and this asshole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtecJ3uuorc

Honestly, the only real problems I have with them are the SRRC takes too much waiting and you don't get enough materials from one root dungeon to make another root dungeon.

So... yeah. Also looking forward to the DLC and hoping DaS3 is at least half as clunky as DaS2 was. DaS2 had several good ideas, but the world layout bugged me and leveling a character up to the point where they have 105 agility is such a drag after Bloodborne.
That worm was epic. I didn´t play chalices that much, it started to get interesting but when pvp lacks versatility from weapons to movesets to gameplay imo so I just quit. I can offcourse go back and do both pve and pvp at anytime. In DaS2 I always lv up agility first or very early. Str and adp. If memory serves right 100 agl and 105 is 1 frame dif and it doesen´t really make a dif.

The link that nyyppä posted said that you can turn your attack in any direction after a roll just like in des. So we should get fast controls and true unlocked style like in des. I hope they further improve slow str weapons like gaxes and hammers, well kinda look what they had in des and improve on that.

Right now in das2 I enjoy using gaxes and hammers but passive fast weapon wins everytime and that clunky gameplay makes using them that much harder tho, that being said its still a major improvement to das1.

I got a good feeling about das3 and I´m hopeful and positive about bb dlc.

p.s I don´t think they ever patched des, did they? its something that makes des so great.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:49 am

Jumilaattori wrote: I didn´t play chalices that much, it started to get interesting but when pvp lacks versatility from weapons to movesets to gameplay imo so I just quit. I can offcourse go back and do both pve and pvp at anytime.


I held the exact same beliefs as you for many months after Bloodborne's release. You are basically forced to play as a rogue, quick and evasive no matter what your weapon choice, the removal of viable shields and poise also amplified this.

After playing the game, especially PvP, for a much longer period of time and actually giving the game a fair shot I've come to the realization this is not true at all, while it is true that the game forces you to play quick and reactive and the removal of back stab mechanics eliminated the strafe-defensive play style altogether, i can't say it's a very missed aspect at all. In fact if anything Bloodborne plays just like Demon's Souls only quicker and with the complete removal of the back stab mechanic.

As i've played the game more and more, parries are becoming much easier to deal with and not as much of a problem as i become more attuned to what works vs parry spam and what does not, i'm not saying bloodtinge builds and parry spamming isn't broken, but when you've actually dedicated time to learn how to counter such tactics you start to notice your win ratio increase dramatically. It's meta is incredibly diverse, every weapon has it's own move set that you have to learn in order to get around being immediately parried. Even so, Bloodborne is not without it's flaws, but the flaws can be easily overcome and the combat is quick and satisfying just like in Demon's Souls, the only real difference being no shields and no back stabs, with a minor tweak to guns i believe Bloodborne could have had the best PvP to date.



Jumilaattori wrote:Right now in das2 I enjoy using gaxes and hammers but passive fast weapon wins everytime and that clunky gameplay makes using them that much harder tho, that being said its still a major improvement to das1.

I got a good feeling about das3 and I´m hopeful and positive about bb dlc.

p.s I don´t think they ever patched des, did they? its something that makes des so great.


This was the problem with Dark Souls II, the game play is too clunky to allow the build diversity it seems to provide on it's surface. You are completely welcome to use weapons like Ultra Greatswords, and i'm sure some people love them and can manage to win with them, because y'know it's souls, people love to push the limits. But quick weapons are always going to win due to the extremely poor design choices by the Dark Souls II dev team. tying iframe count to an in game stat is a perplexing idea, as was the clunky controls, there was no need for this and it never came off as "hard" more than it did as just frustrating. Numerous other problems abound with that game, some have been mitigated with patches but mostly just a second rate souls experience that everyone wants to move on from ASAP.

I really would have loved to have sat in the board meeting they must have had when they decided that SM was a good idea, considering they obviously had some idea of the PvP scene and the massive fan following. Dark Souls actually seems to cater to that crowd while Miyazaki completely ignores us (or so it feels like at times). Just numerous bad design choices, level layout would have been forgivable if core game play was there, and it just isn't in comparison to Dark Souls, they are entirely different games. I really don't like where souls was going with Dark Souls II, especially with the shoe horned remake only a year or two after the initial release, i don't really believe in buying a game twice, so here is hoping Dark Souls III can turn it around and give us the balance between Bloodborne and Dark Souls we have all been waiting for all these years.

Miyazaki "headed" all four games, but had the least influence in Dark Souls II, also i know i used Namco and From incorrectly in my first draft, P
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:35 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:This was the problem with Dark Souls II, the game play is too clunky to allow the build diversity it seems to provide on it's surface. You are completely welcome to use weapons like Ultra Greatswords, and i'm sure some people love them and can manage to win with them, because y'know it's souls, people love to push the limits. But quick weapons are always going to win due to the extremely poor design choices by the Dark Souls II dev team. tying iframe count to an in game stat is a perplexing idea, as was the clunky controls, there was no need for this and it never came off as "hard" more than it did as just frustrating. Numerous other problems abound with that game, some have been mitigated with patches but mostly just a second rate souls experience that everyone wants to move on from ASAP.


Excellent post, but I want to talk about Ultra Greatswords for just a moment.

If you're still playing the game, try using the Fume Ultra Greatsword. It really is an excellent weapon, and overcomes a lot of the problems inherent with other weapons of its class thanks to its blocking attacks. Ultra Greatswords in Dark Souls 2 are pretty viable overall, provided you practice with them and have enough experience to know how and when to use your attacks. The learning curve is much steeper, but once you get it the combination of range, damage per hit, hyperarmor, extremely high counterhit damage after the 130 modifier and naturally high damage, and surprising speed on some of the moves backed by heavy armor (high def+poise) will let you trade with buffed katanas and still come out on top. Part of the trick is actually trading agility investment for vitality to get as much def+poise as possible, then abusing the new hyperarmor mechanics to turn what would normally be you dodging into you devouring 2/3rds of your opponent's lifebar.

Most people don't know how to play against a straight-up trade build like that, so I'll admit that a good chunk of my wins against (non-terrible) people probably came from the sheer surprise factor alone at first. Watching them try to develop counter strategies to it was pretty fun though, back when I was still playing.
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Rest in pieces, Manus.

Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Jumilaattori » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

Tsmp wrote:If you're still playing the game, try using the Fume Ultra Greatsword. It really is an excellent weapon, and overcomes a lot of the problems inherent with other weapons of its class thanks to its blocking attacks. Ultra Greatswords in Dark Souls 2 are pretty viable overall, provided you practice with them and have enough experience to know how and when to use your attacks. The learning curve is much steeper, but once you get it the combination of range, damage per hit, hyperarmor, extremely high counterhit damage after the 130 modifier and naturally high damage, and surprising speed on some of the moves backed by heavy armor (high def+poise) will let you trade with buffed katanas and still come out on top. Part of the trick is actually trading agility investment for vitality to get as much def+poise as possible, then abusing the new hyperarmor mechanics to turn what would normally be you dodging into you devouring 2/3rds of your opponent's lifebar.

Most people don't know how to play against a straight-up trade build like that, so I'll admit that a good chunk of my wins against (non-terrible) people probably came from the sheer surprise factor alone at first. Watching them try to develop counter strategies to it was pretty fun though, back when I was still playing.
The great sword (ugs) is tier S in the right hands with bone fist. Dks2 is all about setups you know. You don´t have to trade hits with the GS, you simply outrange and outspace and stun everything with solid stab and riposte dmg. Overall I´d say that the GS is tier A. It can match any setup. You can play it with 6 poise and 300 def and beat lv600´s with lv 150.

Fume is not so great, its good but not great, not great as the GS.

Dks2 is about inside and outside and playing your game not opponents. I don´t care, I play aggro with gaxe and can still win haha, but yea.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:42 pm

I just have to point out that in the right hands any weapon is "tier A". Like i said in my first post, i'm sure a skilled player in any souls game can easily pick up any weapon he wants and make it "viable". In Demon's Souls i remember killing new players with broken sword, this is an extreme case sure, but i won, and that's because i knew the game better than my opponent.This is the point, viability against equally skilled players is the only thing that matters, and this is where Dark Souls II falls through, the only real viable builds that can pull off consistent wins are quick, high iframe count builds. Not to mention anyone who is level 600 is probably not very good at the game, unless they are trying to be silly.

You have to look at it like chess. A grand master can win with black and white consistently against a room of lower skilled opponents, he has honed the game down to a science while all the other players are just reactive of varying skill levels, but when you see two grand masters get together you'll notice white wins consistently more than black, this isn't because the grand master playing black is worse at chess, and of course he can still pull off wins against white through tactics, but due to no fault of his own and the inherent imbalance of the game chess, white has the advantage and this kind of analysis is similar to what is happening in relation to PvP in all souls games.
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Re: What what? Dark Souls 3 at E3?

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:20 pm

I'm sorry, I don't ever talk about PvP against players who aren't at least my own skill level. You wouldn't know that though, so it's fine.

But yeah, when I was talking about the Fume Greatsword being a very good weapon, I didn't mean against people who aren't good enough to know how to beat it. I meant it's a good weapon in a situation where both players ought to know enough about the game to understand how to use/counter it, i.e. against players of equal skill. And of course, against players who are generally good but simply lack experience against that one particular weapon class, I'm more than happy to give them all the practice they need. Only after that would fighting them count.

I honestly don't know why anyone would bother PvPing people who don't have a chance of beating them. What's the purpose of winning against a player while using a broken sword if they weren't going to win in the first place? :?
Image
Rest in pieces, Manus.

Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
Tsmp
 
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