Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Discuss the multiple items and magic consuming techniques of Yharnam

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:45 am

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm down, but i'm a terrible representation of a good beast claw user, since i do not use it. So i assume you're gong to use Beast Claw? in which cause sure, i'm down. But i think this can only be concluded from someone who is tried and proven their skill with the weapon.


I really hope they work on the matchmaking in the DLC, I've been having problems connecting to people with passwords ever since the last patch. Seriously, why.

Anyways, Beast Claw. Since I couldn't show you directly, I'll just try to explain it instead.

Honestly, I don't know what to say other than that it's simply subpar in every category. Speed on the basic R1s is decent, but the moveset itself, short reach, and the fact that overusing R1s in PvP will often get you shot means you have to rely on the much slower heavy attacks and quickstep attacks. As you said earlier, all weapons in the game are unique, and the Beast Claw is even more so, so explaining how without comparisons is difficult. I love the thing to death, but it doesn't have a single claim to "best at" for anything, and its only gimmick is the perpetual beasthood buildup which isn't something you can reliably do in PvP.

Basically, imagine powerstance caestus in DaS2 or CoC ring (post patch) and you'll have the right idea. The beasthood meter mechanic makes it incredibly fun to use in PvE, but you can't hit a decent player often enough to keep it higher than 25-50 which makes it practically nonexistent in PvP. So, all you're left with is something that's effectively a fist weapon against other, actual weapons.

That explanation wouldn't satisfy me though, so you should probably at least give it a try for yourself. It's possible I'm simply wrong, I don't actually PvP enough to be flawless at it.



I just don't buy your stance that beastclaw is terrible just because it's difficult to use. Neither of us have enough to go on to actually make the call that it's "bad". BoM suffers from a lot of the reach issues and the trick mode is very easy to parry. I don't think dueling just between us is going to prove anything. I don't believe even after substantial testing could one call the beastclaw objectively worse, just more difficult to get use out of than other weapons.

I still would like to get together and do some real number testing with the weapon when possible.
Image
Magicisoverrated
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:22 pm
Country: Antarctica (aq)
PSN Name: Magicisoverrated

Advertisement

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:25 pm

Vumsy wrote:@Magicisoverrated

Rifle spear has alot of uses and low requirement. You can fit into almost any build, it's untransformed L1 attack is great for parry fishing, good at stopping heals with long range spreadshots (hard to sidewalk), gem choice is flexible and long range, charge attack and fast shots for being a spread shot, there's few situations where it isn't handy.

Jumilaattori wrote:Chikage B tier please..

Blades of mercy C tier.. what?

Saw cleaver D tier wtf happened here?

Rifle spear and kirk in A tier.. jesus christ :D


Chikage by itself isn't that good really. It drains hp, for max damage you're limited to it's transformed state and it's moveset is therefore quite limited. If Evelyn didn't exist Chikage would be a niche weapon.

BoM got roll R1 and the occational R2 to catch people sidestepping. It doesn't have much else going on for it, making it predictable and therefore suspectible for parries. It also has short range, except for R2 and rolling R1, which again makes it predictable.

Saw cleaver is in D, simply because unless you went for strength instead of 30/30 or skill. Saw Spears superior moveset and competetive damage makes Saw Cleaver obsolete.

Rifle Spear I've explained, regarding Kirk. It's probably the best strength weapon, good damage and decent moveset. It's transformed mode where the damage lies is on the slow-side, but it has Super Armor to compete with faster weapons. If horribly outdamaged or worn down, it's straight sword mode has speed and the option to use firearms. It's just a solid weapon.

This is all IMO obviously. Which brings me back to:

@Magicisoverrated:

It's near impossible to make a perfectly objective tierlist. That's why tier lists usually are A)" this persons" tierlist or B) community concenseus through a voting system or C) performance in competetive events.
Of course, highest damage, fastest start-up and fastest recovery and the likes are objective and quantifiable qualities to judge in a tierlist. Moveset, options and the likes however are very opinionated. For example, I say Log Wheel got a lacking moveset Astrichthyes says it got a great moveset, so that's open for discussion. One can argue about the viability of Riflespears utility, no one can argue that Stakedriver transformed R2 isn't viable in PvP.
That's the reason tierlists are discussed, if it were quantifiable like highest dps, there would be no need for it.

I wanted to add a little bit on the topic of moveset for the wheel. In my book, it gets an A in moveset, but a D in moveset timing variation. Unless you solely counterattack, you're going to get parried a lot unless your opponent cannot/will not use their gun
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
User avatar
Astrichthyes
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:05 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: astrichthyes, astrichthyes2, astrichthyes3

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:20 am

Astrichthyes wrote: I wanted to add a little bit on the topic of moveset for the wheel. In my book, it gets an A in moveset, but a D in moveset timing variation. Unless you solely counterattack, you're going to get parried a lot unless your opponent cannot/will not use their gun


But isn't this true for all weapons?
Image
Magicisoverrated
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:22 pm
Country: Antarctica (aq)
PSN Name: Magicisoverrated

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:27 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote: I wanted to add a little bit on the topic of moveset for the wheel. In my book, it gets an A in moveset, but a D in moveset timing variation. Unless you solely counterattack, you're going to get parried a lot unless your opponent cannot/will not use their gun


But isn't this true for all weapons?

I believe it is for most weapons, but more so for the wheel than any other weapon because the only significant variation is the charged r2. I guess the biggest problem the PvP in this game is facing is the fact that guns are simply too easy to spam and the stagger on missed parry attempts leaves little room for punishment. It's low risk, which is exactly the opposite of what a parry is supposed to be. The only option for slower weapons is to use lead elixir and vary your attack timing. This strategy is going to be a lot harder against Evelyn because of the massive damage it can do, but it may be a necessary asset to play the slower weapons without having to dance around 20 gunshots and spam the qs r1
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
User avatar
Astrichthyes
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:05 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: astrichthyes, astrichthyes2, astrichthyes3

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:42 am

Astrichthyes wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote: I wanted to add a little bit on the topic of moveset for the wheel. In my book, it gets an A in moveset, but a D in moveset timing variation. Unless you solely counterattack, you're going to get parried a lot unless your opponent cannot/will not use their gun


But isn't this true for all weapons?

I believe it is for most weapons, but more so for the wheel than any other weapon because the only significant variation is the charged r2. I guess the biggest problem the PvP in this game is facing is the fact that guns are simply too easy to spam and the stagger on missed parry attempts leaves little room for punishment. It's low risk, which is exactly the opposite of what a parry is supposed to be. The only option for slower weapons is to use lead elixir and vary your attack timing. This strategy is going to be a lot harder against Evelyn because of the massive damage it can do, but it may be a necessary asset to play the slower weapons without having to dance around 20 gunshots and spam the qs r1


To be fair, in every souls game parry has been a low risk spam button. It's always been ridiculous and counter intuitive, specially in Demon's Souls, you can easily turn parries into a strategy to beating anyone, this was true in Dark Souls also. But you give that parry the ability to travel across the room and do respectable, deadly damage while also giving your opponent a stagger and a possible parry with even less risk and it's just over the top.

The idea was cool, and it's fun in PvE, but i'm positive they didn't do extensive testing with PvP. I think the only way to fix parries is to dramatically lower gun damage and make bullets travel slower, i could excuse realism for the sake of balance.
Image
Magicisoverrated
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:22 pm
Country: Antarctica (aq)
PSN Name: Magicisoverrated

Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:02 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:
But isn't this true for all weapons?

I believe it is for most weapons, but more so for the wheel than any other weapon because the only significant variation is the charged r2. I guess the biggest problem the PvP in this game is facing is the fact that guns are simply too easy to spam and the stagger on missed parry attempts leaves little room for punishment. It's low risk, which is exactly the opposite of what a parry is supposed to be. The only option for slower weapons is to use lead elixir and vary your attack timing. This strategy is going to be a lot harder against Evelyn because of the massive damage it can do, but it may be a necessary asset to play the slower weapons without having to dance around 20 gunshots and spam the qs r1


To be fair, in every souls game parry has been a low risk spam button. It's always been ridiculous and counter intuitive, specially in Demon's Souls, you can easily turn parries into a strategy to beating anyone, this was true in Dark Souls also. But you give that parry the ability to travel across the room and do respectable, deadly damage while also giving your opponent a stagger and a possible parry with even less risk and it's just over the top.

The idea was cool, and it's fun in PvE, but i'm positive they didn't do extensive testing with PvP. I think the only way to fix parries is to dramatically lower gun damage and make bullets travel slower, i could excuse realism for the sake of balance.

I don't personally believe parry was easy in DeS. You could at least dead angle or hyper armor against them if you had the proper weapons. You can't dead angle in BB. I think an alternative to abolishing gun parries is reducing stun except on parries and heals and lowering the damage ceiling. If you could run through a gunshot and not stagger, it would make parries a lot harder to use and you wouldn't have to rely on lead elixir.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
User avatar
Astrichthyes
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:05 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: astrichthyes, astrichthyes2, astrichthyes3

Previous

Return to Items and Spells

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

  • Advertisement