Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Discuss the multiple items and magic consuming techniques of Yharnam

Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Vumsy » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:27 pm

Like the title says, discussion.
Since there's alot of factors in weaponry regarding stats, situation, etc. Some groundrules are in place.

- Limited to PvP discussion, PvE enemies mechanics, stats and the likes are too varied, what shits on Rom sucks on Pthumerian elder for instance.
- 50 VIT, 50 main damage stat or 30/30 split when stats are in question.
- Offhand weapon are limited to what makes sense. STR weapons will obviously get those 13 SKL to access cannon, a Reiter build will not get 30 str.
- Gems not specified, Runes doesn't count.

Ok, I'll primarily base my personal list on qualities such as damage, moveset and utility.
Damage is what it is, AR, multipliers, dps, etc.
Moveset is judged by range, speed, multipliers, viable movelist, etc.
Utility is what offhand weapons you can use, available secondary weapons, gimmicks, etc.

S tier - a rank of it's own
A tier - top rank
B tier - medium rank
C tier - low rank
D tier - a rank of it's own... Not in a good way.

Damage:

S rank
Chikage

A rank
Ludwigs Holy Blade
Logarius' Wheel
Burial Blade
Tonitrus

B rank
Kirkhammer
Blades of Mercy
Hunters Axe
Reiterpallasch
Riflespear

C Rank
Saw Cleaver
Saw Spear
Beast Claws
Stakedriver

D tier
Threaded Cane

Moveset

S tier
Burial Blade

A tier
Ludwigs Holy Blade
Kirkhammer
Threaded Cane
Hunters Axe
Reiterpallasch

B tier
Riflespear
Blades of Mercy
Beast Claws
Saw Spear
Chikage

C tier
Tonitrus
Saw Cleaver
Logarius' Wheel

D tier
Stakedriver

Utility

S tier
Riflespear

A tier
Reiterpallasch
Burialblade
Tonitrus
Ludwigs Holy Blade
Kirkhammer

B tier
Saw Cleaver
Saw Spear
Threaded Cane
Logarius Wheel
Beast Claws
Hunters Axe
Blades of Mercy

C tier
Stakedriver

D tier
Chikage

This results in; my current weapon tier list.

S Tier
Burial blade

A Tier
Ludwigs Holy Blade
Riflespear
Kirkhammer
Reiterpallasch

B tier
Chikage
Tonitrus
Hunters Axe

C tier
Blades of Mercy
Logarius' Wheel
Threaded Cane
Saw Spear
Beast Claws

D tier
Saw Cleaver
Stakedriver

Feel free to call out my bullshit and I'll elaborate and gladly discuss my view on the matter.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:27 am

Alright, i'll bite, but only a nibble. Here's my impression of the Logwheel:

Damage - probably A-rank with the 50/10 blunt or flat arcane setup and B- to C-rank for the 30/25 Nourishing or tempering setup. I was honestly quite disappointed in the overall damage of the weapon because it really should outperform the Chikage, Kirk, and LHB. The church bonus should be the same as the Kirk and LHB and the charged R2 is much weaker than it should be compared to the Kirk and LHB. Being split-damage, the only truly viable setup for this weapon at SL100 is the pure strength, with blunt gems or flat arcane gems as the best gem setups for it. At higher levels, I can see a Nourishing setup doing well, but not until you get at least 50/25 or even 50/50.

Moveset - I would say A- to B-rank. The weapon is great for counters in both modes and has a lot of versatility if you know how to use it. It's the only weapon in the game with an attack that costs 0 stamina and it's AoE. It's the only weapon in the game with hyperarmor in both its 1h and 2h form. It has more range than you might expect at first glance, this being the most noticeable with the TF'd attacks since the range includes the vapor surrounding the wheel. The charged attack is good for catching your opponent off-guard if they try to dodge behind you and you pivot. Those multi-hit dash attacks are great for building up poison or chipping with flat gems.

Utility - This weapon is A-rank in versatility. It can run pure arcane gems and annhiliate with multiple revs. It can run blunt gems for a notable advantage over the Kirk and LHB. It can run vit-gouge rapid poison. It can run flat arcane gems and deal nice damage in the TF state with multi-hit attacks.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Juli » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:24 am

I haven't played the game, but I can't resist an opportunity to post a tier list:

A: Blades of Mercy, Chikage, Burial Blade, Saw Spear, Reiterpallasch, Hunter's Axe, Ludwig's Holy Blade, Saw Cleaver, Rifle Spear
B: Logarius's Wheel, Threaded Cane, Tonitrus, Stake Driver, Beast Claw
C: Kirkhammer

Weapons loosely ordered within tiers. Opinions based on pure theorycraft.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:43 am

Juli wrote:I haven't played the game, but I can't resist an opportunity to post a tier list:

A: Blades of Mercy, Chikage, Burial Blade, Saw Spear, Reiterpallasch, Hunter's Axe, Ludwig's Holy Blade, Saw Cleaver, Rifle Spear
B: Logarius's Wheel, Threaded Cane, Tonitrus, Stake Driver, Beast Claw
C: Kirkhammer

Weapons loosely ordered within tiers. Opinions based on pure theorycraft.

Stake driver is scary on a player who knows how to use it. The damage modifiers are quite good. I got hit for about 450-500 damage on a counterhit dash r1 the first time I fought against it. It was a shame that I only had 1050hp, my opponent had over 1500, and I was dealing about 350 damage per hit with my Nourishing Logwheel in the TF state and only 150-250 in the UTF state. Didn't quite feel fair that my big, slow, heavy weapon was getting out-damaged by a light-weight weapon.

BoM is actually not that good unless you spam the dash r1. The range is what kills it. That r1 combo can be nasty, however, as it seems inescapable after a certain point and your opponent can simply spam until they're exhausted. With all three stamina runes and the proper gems, you could potentially end a fight in one fell swoop.

The threaded cane has not impressed me, nor has the beast claw. I'd say the burial blade is a bit overrated as well.

The saw spear is definitely better than the cleaver IMHO. It has more range and it seems to have a slightly faster and more flexible moveset with better damage typing.

There's no doubt in my mind that LHB is a contender simply because it scales so well, has sweeping attacks, and carries a 50% church bonus in both modes.

The Kirk is actually a pretty damn good weapon overall, but it feels as if they intentionally held it back just so LHB could shine. The moveset is nice and the charged attack hits like a truck going 100kmph, but the vertical strikes are the biggest downfall of the weapon. With only 2 sweeping attacks in hammer mode, both of which are a bit on the slow side, you have to work a lot harder for your hits than you do with the LHB.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Vumsy » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:36 am

Logwheel could've been a really good weapon. I just don't feel it's moveset justifies it's damage output. Flat gemmed running transformed R1 hurts, sure. But it's the only weapon in the game with nothing but slow attacks. Everytime you meet someone in pvp you end up praying the latency is bad enough so people can't parry on reaction.
Kirkhammer got the same qualities as log wheel, with the difference being a bigger movelist along with a straightsword option. Hence my reason for judging it's movelist so low tier. Lots of good attacks, but no variation to adapt to situations.

Speaking of threaded cane, despite pitiful damage, it has the longest range, sweep and speed in the game. It's really easy getting chipdamage off with it. It transformed L1 attack is probably it's most solid attack, quick as an R1, same range as R2 and decent multipliers.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:12 am

I think I'm going to throw a twist into this discussion and add consumable items. Specifically, the Beast Blood Pellet. Some weapons are able to use it much better than others, especially in PvP.

In this case, I'm not talking about actually building the meter. Filling up a beasthood meter against a competent opponent is impossible in PvP. But the first tier is 1-24 BH, which means every weapon will get +20% more physical damage after a single hit (or after initially using the BBP, after this last patch), so the question here is what weapons have the highest total physical AR and give the most buildup per hit, which would make that 20% boost last longer in between hits.

In my opinion, the best weapons for this are the Kirkhammer first and Ludwig's Holy Blade second. Both of them have some insanely high buildup on their trick mode R1s, which combines with their high damage to turn potential 3-4HKOs into potential 2-3HKOs. Logarius' Wheel is capable of building up the meter much faster, but only on its heavy attacks and it can't take advantage of it due to the low physical damage in its trick mode.

Ironically, the worst weapon at this is probably the Beast Claw itself, due to its short range, low buildup, and low physical AR. :lol:
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:12 pm

Tsmp wrote:I think I'm going to throw a twist into this discussion and add consumable items. Specifically, the Beast Blood Pellet. Some weapons are able to use it much better than others, especially in PvP.

In this case, I'm not talking about actually building the meter. Filling up a beasthood meter against a competent opponent is impossible in PvP. But the first tier is 1-24 BH, which means every weapon will get +20% more physical damage after a single hit (or after initially using the BBP, after this last patch), so the question here is what weapons have the highest total physical AR and give the most buildup per hit, which would make that 20% boost last longer in between hits.

In my opinion, the best weapons for this are the Kirkhammer first and Ludwig's Holy Blade second. Both of them have some insanely high buildup on their trick mode R1s, which combines with their high damage to turn potential 3-4HKOs into potential 2-3HKOs. Logarius' Wheel is capable of building up the meter much faster, but only on its heavy attacks and it can't take advantage of it due to the low physical damage in its trick mode.

Ironically, the worst weapon at this is probably the Beast Claw itself, due to its short range, low buildup, and low physical AR. :lol:

I agree here. The Logwheel does have a great moveset, but little timing variation, which is probably its biggest downfall. The only quick attacks are those dash r1's. If you did manage to land a multi-hit r2 with the logwheel, your beasthood meter would almost completely fill up, after which you could go into the UTF state and deal incredible damage that way. At 50s with blunt gems, the physical AR in the TF state is actually not bad, but it's definitely a lot more powerful in the UTF state. I wouldn't keep it in the TF state after getting some buildup. The MHA QS r1's are not a bad way to fill up the meter either and can do so quite reliably, but it will take a lot longer to do so. Baiting someone into taking one of those r2's is key if you do want to run a BH buff. I haven't tested BH with the Kirk, but I imagine it does extremely well. I can see it crushing a host in one hit with a charged r2.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:12 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:
Tsmp wrote:I think I'm going to throw a twist into this discussion and add consumable items. Specifically, the Beast Blood Pellet. Some weapons are able to use it much better than others, especially in PvP.

In this case, I'm not talking about actually building the meter. Filling up a beasthood meter against a competent opponent is impossible in PvP. But the first tier is 1-24 BH, which means every weapon will get +20% more physical damage after a single hit (or after initially using the BBP, after this last patch), so the question here is what weapons have the highest total physical AR and give the most buildup per hit, which would make that 20% boost last longer in between hits.

In my opinion, the best weapons for this are the Kirkhammer first and Ludwig's Holy Blade second. Both of them have some insanely high buildup on their trick mode R1s, which combines with their high damage to turn potential 3-4HKOs into potential 2-3HKOs. Logarius' Wheel is capable of building up the meter much faster, but only on its heavy attacks and it can't take advantage of it due to the low physical damage in its trick mode.

Ironically, the worst weapon at this is probably the Beast Claw itself, due to its short range, low buildup, and low physical AR. :lol:

I agree here. The Logwheel does have a great moveset, but little timing variation, which is probably its biggest downfall. The only quick attacks are those dash r1's. If you did manage to land a multi-hit r2 with the logwheel, your beasthood meter would almost completely fill up, after which you could go into the UTF state and deal incredible damage that way. At 50s with blunt gems, the physical AR in the TF state is actually not bad, but it's definitely a lot more powerful in the UTF state. I wouldn't keep it in the TF state after getting some buildup. The MHA QS r1's are not a bad way to fill up the meter either and can do so quite reliably, but it will take a lot longer to do so. Baiting someone into taking one of those r2's is key if you do want to run a BH buff. I haven't tested BH with the Kirk, but I imagine it does extremely well. I can see it crushing a host in one hit with a charged r2.


Well see, that's the problem. If you can tag someone enough to reliably build up your beasthood meter, then they already died five minutes ago. The only way you're likely to get it over the 50 breakpoint is if you're either letting your opponent heal just for the hell of it, or if you're using LogWheel's trick mode. And the problem with LogWheel + BBP is it can't actually use the beasthood bonus until you switch it back to physical, whereas other weapons will see a noticeable damage increase on the first hit, and sometimes two or three hits after that if you're using Kirk/LHB and your opponent has at least 1,500 hp. Assuming you're hitting them frequently enough to not run out, because of how fast it depletes.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:59 pm

Tsmp wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:
Tsmp wrote:I think I'm going to throw a twist into this discussion and add consumable items. Specifically, the Beast Blood Pellet. Some weapons are able to use it much better than others, especially in PvP.

In this case, I'm not talking about actually building the meter. Filling up a beasthood meter against a competent opponent is impossible in PvP. But the first tier is 1-24 BH, which means every weapon will get +20% more physical damage after a single hit (or after initially using the BBP, after this last patch), so the question here is what weapons have the highest total physical AR and give the most buildup per hit, which would make that 20% boost last longer in between hits.

In my opinion, the best weapons for this are the Kirkhammer first and Ludwig's Holy Blade second. Both of them have some insanely high buildup on their trick mode R1s, which combines with their high damage to turn potential 3-4HKOs into potential 2-3HKOs. Logarius' Wheel is capable of building up the meter much faster, but only on its heavy attacks and it can't take advantage of it due to the low physical damage in its trick mode.

Ironically, the worst weapon at this is probably the Beast Claw itself, due to its short range, low buildup, and low physical AR. :lol:

I agree here. The Logwheel does have a great moveset, but little timing variation, which is probably its biggest downfall. The only quick attacks are those dash r1's. If you did manage to land a multi-hit r2 with the logwheel, your beasthood meter would almost completely fill up, after which you could go into the UTF state and deal incredible damage that way. At 50s with blunt gems, the physical AR in the TF state is actually not bad, but it's definitely a lot more powerful in the UTF state. I wouldn't keep it in the TF state after getting some buildup. The MHA QS r1's are not a bad way to fill up the meter either and can do so quite reliably, but it will take a lot longer to do so. Baiting someone into taking one of those r2's is key if you do want to run a BH buff. I haven't tested BH with the Kirk, but I imagine it does extremely well. I can see it crushing a host in one hit with a charged r2.


Well see, that's the problem. If you can tag someone enough to reliably build up your beasthood meter, then they already died five minutes ago. The only way you're likely to get it over the 50 breakpoint is if you're either letting your opponent heal just for the hell of it, or if you're using LogWheel's trick mode. And the problem with LogWheel + BBP is it can't actually use the beasthood bonus until you switch it back to physical, whereas other weapons will see a noticeable damage increase on the first hit, and sometimes two or three hits after that if you're using Kirk/LHB and your opponent has at least 1,500 hp. Assuming you're hitting them frequently enough to not run out, because of how fast it depletes.

All true. Unless they gave phantoms 100% max hp, you won't see any good use for BBP except to turn a 3hko into a 2hko and so on. As it is, a Kirk charged r2 can hit 1k-1200 damage, which is potentially OHKO territory for a phantom. Boost it by another 20% and you're close to killing a host in one shot, let alone easily wiping out any phantom. Should From give phantoms the extra hp, which I totally believe is necessary for the sake of game balance, we will likely see a wider range of build types and strategies involving consumables and uncommon gem types such as rapid poison. The hp discrepancy between hosts and phantoms is problematic because the phantom cannot heal as much hp per vial, has a smaller pool of hp that does not match up to the power of the weapons we have at our disposal, and deals the same amount of damage that they would as a host. At least DeS had it so the host had more hp and an extra ring slot (no cling) at the cost of lower damage output and DkS had equal hp and equal damage in both host and phantom form, which ultimately made conditions more fair than it currently is for BB in host vs phantom duels.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:23 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:All true. Unless they gave phantoms 100% max hp, you won't see any good use for BBP except to turn a 3hko into a 2hko and so on. As it is, a Kirk charged r2 can hit 1k-1200 damage, which is potentially OHKO territory for a phantom. Boost it by another 20% and you're close to killing a host in one shot, let alone easily wiping out any phantom. Should From give phantoms the extra hp, which I totally believe is necessary for the sake of game balance, we will likely see a wider range of build types and strategies involving consumables and uncommon gem types such as rapid poison. The hp discrepancy between hosts and phantoms is problematic because the phantom cannot heal as much hp per vial, has a smaller pool of hp that does not match up to the power of the weapons we have at our disposal, and deals the same amount of damage that they would as a host. At least DeS had it so the host had more hp and an extra ring slot (no cling) at the cost of lower damage output and DkS had equal hp and equal damage in both host and phantom form, which ultimately made conditions more fair than it currently is for BB in host vs phantom duels.

Hosts had two extra ring slots, what'chyu talking about. No cling, and no friend/foe.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:27 pm

Tsmp wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:All true. Unless they gave phantoms 100% max hp, you won't see any good use for BBP except to turn a 3hko into a 2hko and so on. As it is, a Kirk charged r2 can hit 1k-1200 damage, which is potentially OHKO territory for a phantom. Boost it by another 20% and you're close to killing a host in one shot, let alone easily wiping out any phantom. Should From give phantoms the extra hp, which I totally believe is necessary for the sake of game balance, we will likely see a wider range of build types and strategies involving consumables and uncommon gem types such as rapid poison. The hp discrepancy between hosts and phantoms is problematic because the phantom cannot heal as much hp per vial, has a smaller pool of hp that does not match up to the power of the weapons we have at our disposal, and deals the same amount of damage that they would as a host. At least DeS had it so the host had more hp and an extra ring slot (no cling) at the cost of lower damage output and DkS had equal hp and equal damage in both host and phantom form, which ultimately made conditions more fair than it currently is for BB in host vs phantom duels.

Hosts had two extra ring slots, what'chyu talking about. No cling, and no friend/foe.

I didn't count F/F because it was literally the best ring for anything but pmages, which could use msharp to hit a little harder than F/F. The host had no damage-modifying rings except master ring for dh's and hypermode.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:30 pm

Vumsy wrote:
Utility

S tier
Riflespear



Why?
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:28 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:
Tsmp wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:All true. Unless they gave phantoms 100% max hp, you won't see any good use for BBP except to turn a 3hko into a 2hko and so on. As it is, a Kirk charged r2 can hit 1k-1200 damage, which is potentially OHKO territory for a phantom. Boost it by another 20% and you're close to killing a host in one shot, let alone easily wiping out any phantom. Should From give phantoms the extra hp, which I totally believe is necessary for the sake of game balance, we will likely see a wider range of build types and strategies involving consumables and uncommon gem types such as rapid poison. The hp discrepancy between hosts and phantoms is problematic because the phantom cannot heal as much hp per vial, has a smaller pool of hp that does not match up to the power of the weapons we have at our disposal, and deals the same amount of damage that they would as a host. At least DeS had it so the host had more hp and an extra ring slot (no cling) at the cost of lower damage output and DkS had equal hp and equal damage in both host and phantom form, which ultimately made conditions more fair than it currently is for BB in host vs phantom duels.

Hosts had two extra ring slots, what'chyu talking about. No cling, and no friend/foe.

I didn't count F/F because it was literally the best ring for anything but pmages, which could use msharp to hit a little harder than F/F. The host had no damage-modifying rings except master ring for dh's and hypermode.

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be a damage ring. It's still a second ring slot to put something in, like Eternal Warrior, the regeneration ring, or magical dullness.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:51 pm

Indeed. Damage was typically more important than the effects of the other rings and I believe this remains true for the gems in BB. Tempering and nourishing are the bee's knees for most weapons. Few weapons benefit more from any other gems without becoming weaker than the aforementioned gem setups. Flat gems on the Logwheel, Burial Blade, and BoM are some of these exceptions. Another is blunt gems on the Logwheel. Most of the other gems are simply too gimmicky to be a serious option in PvP.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:58 am

I think the only other real option is a Hp regen circular gem in a gun for builds that don't use bloodtinge. By the way, Hp regen seems to max at 20 per tick, and ticks happen every 2.5 - 3 seconds. At least, that's the most I've been able to attain.

Let me think... Physical goes without saying, but the only thing I can imagine Nourishing being useful in is the Tonitrus, and that's not a terribly good weapon in PvP. Nourishing might maybe be useful for a pure arcane build as a way to boost their visceral attack damage without sacrificing too much weapon damage (one arc/fire/bolt gem, two nourishing) since viscerals are pure physical and are only boosted by gems that affect physical damage, but that's kind of a stretch since boosting their weapon attack damage would probably be more valuable.

Arcane, Fire, and Bolt % gems are useful for arcane builds of course. A 50 bloodtinge build using a Lost Chikage would probably want a circle gem with really high %blood up, and probably a second one for their Evelyn. Nothing else comes to mind unless you're trying for a hypermode build. The guide mentions a gem that boosts regain which could be useful for fast weapons in pvp, but I've yet to find one.
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Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
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Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby nyyppa » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:04 am

Tsmp wrote:Let me think... Physical goes without saying, but the only thing I can imagine Nourishing being useful in is the Tonitrus, and that's not a terribly good weapon in PvP.


About the Tonitrus, I guess it's not a top tier PvP by it's moveset or reach, but I think it's a quite potent choice for say, a vit gouge build.

This came to my mind because I have a build that has 25 STR, 25 SKL and 25 ARC, to fool around with different weapons and gem setups. And on this build I have a Lost Tonitrus with 3 nourishing gems in it. They're not the absolute best nourishing ones since I haven't been able to get really good secondary effects in them, and the radial one is even a non-abyssal (cause fuck Rom), and the weapon still gets about 960 AR with the buff. And the buff is relatively easy to keep up even in PvP.

Having 25 SKL there probably isn't a huge factor towards the Tonitrus' damage output, so all that could be dumped into VIT. I also have an oldish sheet of Tonitrus buff damage comparison between 15 and 45 ARC, and on the 45 ARC character the buff only added 21 more AR compared to the 15 ARC one. So I'm not entirely sure how high it is worth to raise your ARC either.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:00 am

Chikage B tier please..

Blades of mercy C tier.. what?

Saw cleaver D tier wtf happened here?

Rifle spear and kirk in A tier.. jesus christ :D
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:05 am

nyyppa wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Let me think... Physical goes without saying, but the only thing I can imagine Nourishing being useful in is the Tonitrus, and that's not a terribly good weapon in PvP.


About the Tonitrus, I guess it's not a top tier PvP by it's moveset or reach, but I think it's a quite potent choice for say, a vit gouge build.

This came to my mind because I have a build that has 25 STR, 25 SKL and 25 ARC, to fool around with different weapons and gem setups. And on this build I have a Lost Tonitrus with 3 nourishing gems in it. They're not the absolute best nourishing ones since I haven't been able to get really good secondary effects in them, and the radial one is even a non-abyssal (cause fuck Rom), and the weapon still gets about 960 AR with the buff. And the buff is relatively easy to keep up even in PvP.

Having 25 SKL there probably isn't a huge factor towards the Tonitrus' damage output, so all that could be dumped into VIT. I also have an oldish sheet of Tonitrus buff damage comparison between 15 and 45 ARC, and on the 45 ARC character the buff only added 21 more AR compared to the 15 ARC one. So I'm not entirely sure how high it is worth to raise your ARC either.

The Tonitrus is pretty strong with high strength and 25 arcane, but the moveset feels kind of weird to me. Also, I recently learned that the buff gets a buff at full Hp. So if you're checking that damage at full health, then realistically it might not be that high in pvp.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:57 pm

I'm sorry but i feel a weapon tierlist is a terrible idea for a game with only 3 & 1/2 weapons all suited to unique play styles.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:10 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm sorry but i feel a weapon tierlist is a terrible idea for a game with only 3 & 1/2 weapons all suited to unique play styles.

Nein, nein. All of the weapons have surprisingly unique playstyles, with notable exceptions for things like saws and silver swords that share half their moveset with another weapon. It's just that some are much better than others, hence the tierlist.

Blade of Mercy and Burial Blade both have high modifiers on quickstep/roll attacks and dashing attacks, and work well with a high mobility play style, both saws are... okay, they're kind of R1 spammy, quick little things that get in fast and are very suited for pursuit, the sword weapons are generally decent all around and switch between a reliable straight sword moveset and crushing blows, the reiterpallasch and rifle spear both use thrusting attacks and allow you to use a non-gun weapon in your off hand (or a really, really big one I guess), the Tonitrus and Logarius' Wheel are both built for stacking buffs (or at least intended to, in Tonny's case), and Beast Claw is excellent in pve at least.

I'd say those are all some pretty unique play styles, no more than two weapons to each. And I didn't even go through all 15 weapons. Though when you get down to it, the only really bad weapons in pvp are probably Tonitrus and Beast Claw, everything else can at least pose some threat to players.

I'll agree that there's a very heavy emphasis on dodging and shooting, but when it gets down to actually attacking with your weapon you'll be doing it very differently from the other guy.
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Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
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Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:45 am

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm sorry but i feel a weapon tierlist is a terrible idea for a game with only 3 & 1/2 weapons all suited to unique play styles.

Nein, nein. All of the weapons have surprisingly unique playstyles, with notable exceptions for things like saws and silver swords that share half their moveset with another weapon. It's just that some are much better than others, hence the tierlist.

Blade of Mercy and Burial Blade both have high modifiers on quickstep/roll attacks and dashing attacks, and work well with a high mobility play style, both saws are... okay, they're kind of R1 spammy, quick little things that get in fast and are very suited for pursuit, the sword weapons are generally decent all around and switch between a reliable straight sword moveset and crushing blows, the reiterpallasch and rifle spear both use thrusting attacks and allow you to use a non-gun weapon in your off hand (or a really, really big one I guess), the Tonitrus and Logarius' Wheel are both built for stacking buffs (or at least intended to, in Tonny's case), and Beast Claw is excellent in pve at least.

I'd say those are all some pretty unique play styles, no more than two weapons to each. And I didn't even go through all 15 weapons. Though when you get down to it, the only really bad weapons in pvp are probably Tonitrus and Beast Claw, everything else can at least pose some threat to players.

I'll agree that there's a very heavy emphasis on dodging and shooting, but when it gets down to actually attacking with your weapon you'll be doing it very differently from the other guy.



I just have to disagree with any one weapon being better than the other, the weapon choice is so limited in this game each and every weapon has it's place and use, they are all good in the right hands. The only tierlist for weapons in BB that makes sense is damage output in my opinion, don't have much more to say about it because i don't think of things in terms of better worse, too objective of a mindset.

Now for instance, if one weapon was objectively worse, like if the starter weapons had low modifiers and terrible whatever then yea it would work, but that's just not how this game is, even the starter weapons are completely viable in PvP, the cane having one of the most difficult to predict move sets and is surprisingly very good in PvP.

If the tierlist is for funsies then it's all opinion which is cool but if its an objective tierlist this is just bullcrap i'm sorry. Then again as usual if you can prove me wrong then do so, i enjoy seeing different constructed view points.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Jumilaattori » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:26 am

Its complicated so pay attention.

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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:17 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:I just have to disagree with any one weapon being better than the other, the weapon choice is so limited in this game each and every weapon has it's place and use, they are all good in the right hands. The only tierlist for weapons in BB that makes sense is damage output in my opinion, don't have much more to say about it because i don't think of things in terms of better worse, too objective of a mindset.

Now for instance, if one weapon was objectively worse, like if the starter weapons had low modifiers and terrible whatever then yea it would work, but that's just not how this game is, even the starter weapons are completely viable in PvP, the cane having one of the most difficult to predict move sets and is surprisingly very good in PvP.

If the tierlist is for funsies then it's all opinion which is cool but if its an objective tierlist this is just bullcrap i'm sorry. Then again as usual if you can prove me wrong then do so, i enjoy seeing different constructed view points.


I challenge you to demonstrate how the Beast Claw is not objectively worse than the Saw Cleaver in PvP.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Vumsy » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:48 am

@Magicisoverrated

Rifle spear has alot of uses and low requirement. You can fit into almost any build, it's untransformed L1 attack is great for parry fishing, good at stopping heals with long range spreadshots (hard to sidewalk), gem choice is flexible and long range, charge attack and fast shots for being a spread shot, there's few situations where it isn't handy.

Jumilaattori wrote:Chikage B tier please..

Blades of mercy C tier.. what?

Saw cleaver D tier wtf happened here?

Rifle spear and kirk in A tier.. jesus christ :D


Chikage by itself isn't that good really. It drains hp, for max damage you're limited to it's transformed state and it's moveset is therefore quite limited. If Evelyn didn't exist Chikage would be a niche weapon.

BoM got roll R1 and the occational R2 to catch people sidestepping. It doesn't have much else going on for it, making it predictable and therefore suspectible for parries. It also has short range, except for R2 and rolling R1, which again makes it predictable.

Saw cleaver is in D, simply because unless you went for strength instead of 30/30 or skill. Saw Spears superior moveset and competetive damage makes Saw Cleaver obsolete.

Rifle Spear I've explained, regarding Kirk. It's probably the best strength weapon, good damage and decent moveset. It's transformed mode where the damage lies is on the slow-side, but it has Super Armor to compete with faster weapons. If horribly outdamaged or worn down, it's straight sword mode has speed and the option to use firearms. It's just a solid weapon.

This is all IMO obviously. Which brings me back to:

@Magicisoverrated:

It's near impossible to make a perfectly objective tierlist. That's why tier lists usually are A)" this persons" tierlist or B) community concenseus through a voting system or C) performance in competetive events.
Of course, highest damage, fastest start-up and fastest recovery and the likes are objective and quantifiable qualities to judge in a tierlist. Moveset, options and the likes however are very opinionated. For example, I say Log Wheel got a lacking moveset Astrichthyes says it got a great moveset, so that's open for discussion. One can argue about the viability of Riflespears utility, no one can argue that Stakedriver transformed R2 isn't viable in PvP.
That's the reason tierlists are discussed, if it were quantifiable like highest dps, there would be no need for it.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:54 am

Vumsy, I'm pretty sure the first strength and skill softcaps are at 25 each. Do you think those 5 extra points per make enough of a difference as opposed to putting them somewhere else like vitality or endurance, or into arcane for tool access?

I know the saw cleaver and saw spear cost different amounts of stamina per swing in their untransformed state, but I don't remember which one costs more.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:16 pm

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:I just have to disagree with any one weapon being better than the other, the weapon choice is so limited in this game each and every weapon has it's place and use, they are all good in the right hands. The only tierlist for weapons in BB that makes sense is damage output in my opinion, don't have much more to say about it because i don't think of things in terms of better worse, too objective of a mindset.

Now for instance, if one weapon was objectively worse, like if the starter weapons had low modifiers and terrible whatever then yea it would work, but that's just not how this game is, even the starter weapons are completely viable in PvP, the cane having one of the most difficult to predict move sets and is surprisingly very good in PvP.

If the tierlist is for funsies then it's all opinion which is cool but if its an objective tierlist this is just bullcrap i'm sorry. Then again as usual if you can prove me wrong then do so, i enjoy seeing different constructed view points.


I challenge you to demonstrate how the Beast Claw is not objectively worse than the Saw Cleaver in PvP.


The claim here being made is that Beast Claw is objectively worse, burden of proof is on your end TSMP, not mine.



@Vumsy okay, yea that's cool and i completely understand your point, so this is for fun and in that case here is my tierlist based purely on how badass each weapon is:


S
Blades of Mercy
Logwheel (just cause your beating someone to death with a massive wheel, i mean think how pissed off you have to be to actually do that)
Canewhip (roleplay a belmont)

A
hammersword
holyblade
Canon

B
everything i missed

Z
chikage (rolls eyes at shoehorned katana in 1800s london-esque setting)


This list is completely opinion, i'm not justifying anything :o
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:39 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:The claim here being made is that Beast Claw is objectively worse, burden of proof is on your end TSMP, not mine.


Oh, fine. I wanted to see how you'd explain it in your own words, but if you want it that way then let's do it my way.

Get in my chalice dungeon, I choose to present my argument as a demonstration. Glyph is qij5wfv9, sinister Isz.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:08 pm

Tsmp wrote:
Magicisoverrated wrote:The claim here being made is that Beast Claw is objectively worse, burden of proof is on your end TSMP, not mine.


Oh, fine. I wanted to see how you'd explain it in your own words, but if you want it that way then let's do it my way.

Get in my chalice dungeon, I choose to present my argument as a demonstration. Glyph is qij5wfv9, sinister Isz.


I'm down, but i'm a terrible representation of a good beast claw user, since i do not use it. So i assume you're gong to use Beast Claw? in which cause sure, i'm down. But i think this can only be concluded from someone who is tried and proven their skill with the weapon.
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:12 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:I'm down, but i'm a terrible representation of a good beast claw user, since i do not use it. So i assume you're gong to use Beast Claw? in which cause sure, i'm down. But i think this can only be concluded from someone who is tried and proven their skill with the weapon.


I really hope they work on the matchmaking in the DLC, I've been having problems connecting to people with passwords ever since the last patch. Seriously, why.

Anyways, Beast Claw. Since I couldn't show you directly, I'll just try to explain it instead.

Honestly, I don't know what to say other than that it's simply subpar in every category. Speed on the basic R1s is decent, but the moveset itself, short reach, and the fact that overusing R1s in PvP will often get you shot means you have to rely on the much slower heavy attacks and quickstep attacks. As you said earlier, all weapons in the game are unique, and the Beast Claw is even more so, so explaining how without comparisons is difficult. I love the thing to death, but it doesn't have a single claim to "best at" for anything, and its only gimmick is the perpetual beasthood buildup which isn't something you can reliably do in PvP.

Basically, imagine powerstance caestus in DaS2 or CoC ring (post patch) and you'll have the right idea. The beasthood meter mechanic makes it incredibly fun to use in PvE, but you can't hit a decent player often enough to keep it higher than 25-50 which makes it practically nonexistent in PvP. So, all you're left with is something that's effectively a fist weapon against other, actual weapons.

That explanation wouldn't satisfy me though, so you should probably at least give it a try for yourself. It's possible I'm simply wrong, I don't actually PvP enough to be flawless at it.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Trick Weapon tierlist (PvP) discussion

Postby Jumilaattori » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:54 pm

PS caestus is actually one of the most competitive setups in dks2. They are like A tier when Beast claw is D tier.

Its all about moveset, versatility and range when these are in order comes dmg.

S Burial,chikage

A Ludwig,reiter,axe

B Mercy,saw cleaver,kirk hammer

C wheel,rifle spear,cane

D tonitrus,beast claw,stake driver
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