Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Discuss the multiple items and magic consuming techniques of Yharnam

Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/10/15

Postby phero » Mon May 11, 2015 1:54 am

Awesome thread :) Although would be a lot easier if From Soft simply could give us the numbers.

Anyway I don't think scaling is reversed because even in a pure str build the trick mode always does more damage than regular. Instead I think the base damage changes so that the arcane portion of the damage is relatively a lot higher. Still, part of that base damage is also still physical and scales with the str stat at it's S scaling, which is why in the long run the str stat is still the better way to go (past 25).

So perhaps only the base damage changes in favour of arcane, while the scaling stays the same.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/10/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon May 11, 2015 2:39 am

phero wrote:Awesome thread :) Although would be a lot easier if From Soft simply could give us the numbers.

Anyway I don't think scaling is reversed because even in a pure str build the trick mode always does more damage than regular. Instead I think the base damage changes so that the arcane portion of the damage is relatively a lot higher. Still, part of that base damage is also still physical and scales with the str stat at it's S scaling, which is why in the long run the str stat is still the better way to go (past 25).

So perhaps only the base damage changes in favour of arcane, while the scaling stays the same.

Thanks. I actually tested the 50/10 version of the Logwheel and it did less damage than the 1h, however adding a few points to arcane changed that. The thing with scaling and changing the base damage is that the scaling is dependent on the base damage. Doubling the base damage effectively doubles the gains from scaling. I also found that damage increases only about half as much as the AR increases on the physical side, which suggests that physical damage may be reduced by half in the transformed state. Even if you double the AR on the arcane side, it doesn't seem to explain the more than double increases you get in AR to damage (in fact, it's almost 4x's the AR increases).

Analyzing my buffs, you see that at 25a with no gems, a buff grants me 14AR. That means my AR is between 140 and 149 originally. 64AR transforming into 140-149 is pretty substantial, especially when you can boost it with gems (1.793x) and further buffs (up to 1.4x).
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/10/15

Postby phero » Mon May 11, 2015 3:59 am

What I'm really wondering is, for a pvp build, what the most worthwhile stat is to invest in while trying to keep versatility (for example wielding a Kirkhammer as a second weapon).

Your first post states:
My test results:
Logarius wheel+9 damage vs ng Yarnham axeman ( no blood gems)
50/10 1h: 312 2h: 309
50/13 1h: 314 2h: 319
50/14 1h: 315 2h: 323


And another states:
Logwheel+10, no gems, vs brick-fists past Gilbert's window with normal r1's

25s/20a
AR: 309P+60A
DMG:
255UTF
320TF

(...)

25S/25A
AR: 309P+64A
DMG:
257UTF
343TF


So with a +9 wheel at 50/10 the damage in both modes is roughly equal, around 310. At 25/25 at +10 the 2H damage is quite a bit higher compared to the 1H mode, around 340 vs 260.

I'm wondering however what the damage figures would be for a +10 Wheel at 50/10 compared to say 38/25. The difference between 1H and 2H might be a lot bigger in the 38/25 build compared to the 50/10, but how does absolute damage compare? You might be giving up a lot of 1H damage for only a small difference in 2H damage. So the difference between the 1H and 2H mode would be bigger, but that would mostly be because the 1H damage is simply that much lower compared to a full str build.

Ofcourse this does not take into account the scaling you gain from buffing up, but that's not something I plan on doing in pvp. And with a full str build you keep the versatility to keep kirkhammer as a second weapon.

Wondering what your thoughts are on this. Pure str the way to go for versatile and non-buffing pvp? While hopefully keeping damage differences compared to 38/25 to a minimum (because that 2H R1 dash is just lovely).

Edit: Or I can just go for some kind of ~40/25 Tonitrus/Wheel build, sounds cool aswell :)
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Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon May 11, 2015 9:38 am

Ah, I forgot that the initial test was at +9. Because it wasn't fully upgraded, both base damage and scaling were quite a bit lower. I would think that the 50/10 damage would scale proportionally upward if I didn't know better, however the gains from arcane AR would probably be quite significant (even a 7AR increase would probably amount to about a 25-30 damage increase).

What I figured is that this weapon might behave a lot like the meat cleaver from DeS such that split investment might actually net you the highest damage gains due to diminishing returns. Split investment also means the character is a bit more well rounded in dmg output. The ideal stat spread for this weapon is probably going to be 50/25+, which is impossible at SL100, but possible at 125 without going glass cannon. Due to the duality of the weapon, I don't see any other way of balancing and optimizing it then a split. A pure str version may actually deal less damage than the arcane due to hitting a generally higher def stat (blunt). If your opponent wants to fully counter this weapon with armor, they will need the executioners set, which is weak to fire and slash, both of which are available in LHB or KH respectively.

The KH won't hit quite as hard as a 50s version, but it still hits a decent amount of damage with 3 27.2%p gems. Unlike a standard strength, you can also mix magic in with your melee (exec gloves, augur, rosemarinus) and your rope molotovs should hit for decent damage and stop back counter attacks from being successful.

I don't yet have the answers on whether a pure strength will be outdamaged by a split, I feel that the 1h moveset is inferior to the 2h and has a weaker multiplier, as indicated by the massive damage increase from 1h to 2h in my 30/25 testing. It may even be better to go 50arc than 50s if you focus on arcane gems and the 2h moveset due to high power and better use of Hunter tools like augur, exec gloves, a call beyond, etc. since the arcane side of things seems to scale quite well with a little more playstyle versatility

I'll be fighting Amygdala again tonight. I got a rank 19 gem last night with -10hp and had to reload the save. Upon switching my 50 eye rune for 15%hp, only 3 easy dodge attacks can OHKO. Makes farming much easier.


Update: Got my Cursed Abyssal Nourishing Bloodgem (Triangular)! 21.5%ATK, +15 Fire, -12.2% beast. I gained a TON of AR off of this one. I was using 20.3% ARC before and barely gained anything in the arcane dept with the new gem, but the physical increase has had a huge impact on my overall damage. I'm hitting roughly 950-1300 per hit against the dregling-like enemies you often see in early pthumeru dungeons and getting OHKO's. I was only hitting about 700-1k before, so this gem was well worth the effort. Just opened up Lower Loran, which I will have to beat before I can get my blood rock or find Amygdala again in Lower root, but I just nabbed a bunch of BoL's on my way through Ailing Loran and need only 1 more blooming coldblood flower to open LL Root. I finally feel like i'm making some progress in optimizing this weapon and figuring out how high the damage will go with my split stat spread.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby phero » Wed May 13, 2015 5:51 am

So I have no idea how this ties into all the math, but I wanted to share anyway - perhaps it is interesting for someone.

This page shows that at 50s/50a the 1H mode slightly outdamages the 2H mode on a normal or dash R1 (non-revved), however, in that test there are three physical 27,2% gems equipped:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... l_weapons/

I also found this page, showing the exact formula needed to calculate weapon AR based on base damage, scaling and stat allocation:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... _hate_him/

Basically the formula for 1H mode AR is:
200 + (200 * 1.1 * X) + 50 + (50 * 0.56 * Y)
With X and Y being numbers based on the attribute allocation of str and arc respectevily, which you can find in this table:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/publishrang ... 284167e05f

Perhaps all this helps someone in trying to figure out how the scaling works in 2H mode. The math is a little too complicated for me I'm afraid.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed May 13, 2015 10:11 am

phero wrote:This page shows that at 50s/50a the 1H mode slightly outdamages the 2H mode on a normal or dash R1 (non-revved), however, in that test there are three physical 27,2% gems equipped:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... l_weapons/

None of this information is new to me. I've seen it befoe, however I'm not so much interested in AR as damage.

What I saw with my initial tests on my 50/10 weapon confirms what your first link says because the damage was almost the same for both modes. Even on a 50/25 with all physical gems, the 2h damage will be quite good because it seems to result from better multipliers. It also means this weapon may be an absolute monster on a dedicated arcane- heavy strength build with 3 arcane gems. What my formulas did is, instead of calculating AR, which is difficult with the fact that the base AR and scaling are hidden, they calculated approximate damage increases via a ratio. If x% gem gives you increase A and y% gem is your goal gem with damage increase B, setting them against each other should reveal a relatively close damage approximation such that

B = A(y/x)

Y and x are both in decimal form and should be less than 1 unless multiple gems are being multiplied together, which would be represented as

B = A[(y^n)-1]/[(x^n)-1]

Where x and y are represented in their decimal form as a 100+X%/100 (ex 20% = 1.20). This method can also be used to find AR increases in the same way, although you no longer need a ratio to find them, which is what the reddit formulas do.

Because of the excellent scaling of this weapon in both forms, ATK gems seem to be the best route, as you effectively multiply 2 great stats instead of just 1. It may actually outdamage a single-stat gem setup if the damage from both sides is relatively equal. If a single stat gem setup is chosen, it may ultimately make the weapon a little more powerful in one mode, but limit it to that mode unless you compromise damage output by using a moveset you didn't prepare to use. If you did 3 27.2%ARC gems at 50ARC with a buff, you're gonna hit like a truck in 2h and barely scratch your opponent with viscerals or the 1h moveset, which I absolutely believe is inferior for a lot of reasons, but not worth ignoring. I'll test the damage increase of my new gem tonight and see what we should get with 2 more of a similar gem (also whether my original estimations are accurate)
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby phero » Thu May 14, 2015 8:28 am

I now have a character with a 50str/10a wheel at +10. No gems on NG Yarnham axeman:
1H: 346
2H: 348

Tested multiple times.

Edit: farmed some echoes and swapped a save file. More tests:

46/10
1H 333
2H 339

50/11
1H 346
2H 352

50/12
1H 346
2H 357

50/13
1H 348
2H 362

50/14
1H 348
2H 366

50/15
1H 349
2H 371

So without gems, going from 46/10 to 50/10 (4 points) gained 13 damage in 1H mode, 9 damage in 2H mode.

Going from 50/10 to 50/14 (also 4 points) gained 2 damage in 1H mode and 18 damage in 2H mode.

Edit2: Gems.

15% all atk (13) at 50/15
1H 416
2H 440

18% arc (14) at 50/15
2H 403
Last edited by phero on Thu May 14, 2015 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu May 14, 2015 9:46 am

phero wrote:I now have a character with a 50str/10a wheel at +10. No gems on NG Yarnham axeman:
1H: 346
2H: 348

Tested multiple times.

Edit: farmed some echoes and swapped a save file. More tests:

46/10
1H 333
2H 339

50/11
1H 346
2H 352

50/12
1H 346
2H 357

50/13
1H 348
2H 362

50/14
1H 348
2H 366

50/15
1H 349
2H 371

Looks very similar to my original data set. The unfortunate side of this weapon is that the physical scaling seems quite strong, but that 2h arcane damage is so much better. 4-5 damage per point up to 25A without gems is extremely good for a C-scaling stat. I'm actually thinking that the reason the physical side is so weak is because most enemies in the game seem to have higher blunt def than slash or pierce. A 1h KH running r2 can sometimes deal more damage than the 1h Logwheel.

I had my very first invader last night and got to see how my damage was. A little over 500 damage on a dash r1 counter, about 350 on a non-CH. The guy never landed a hit with the burial blade and couldn't even pop his first vial.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby phero » Thu May 14, 2015 10:12 am

Astrichthyes wrote: Looks very similar to my original data set. The unfortunate side of this weapon is that the physical scaling seems quite strong, but that 2h arcane damage is so much better. 4-5 damage per point up to 25A without gems is extremely good for a C-scaling stat. I'm actually thinking that the reason the physical side is so weak is because most enemies in the game seem to have higher blunt def than slash or pierce. A 1h KH running r2 can sometimes deal more damage than the 1h Logwheel.

I had my very first invader last night and got to see how my damage was. A little over 500 damage on a dash r1 counter, about 350 on a non-CH. The guy never landed a hit with the burial blade and couldn't even pop his first vial.


Sounds great :) I'm glad the 2H difference between 50/10 and something like 38/25 doesn't appear to be that huge. I edited the post a second time btw. Seems that on 50/15 all atk gems are (expectedly) a lot better than arc gems.

Guess the choice between arc or str depends mostly on playstyle (magic items and secondary weapons) and whether you'll want to use the 1H mode or the rev mechanic. For now, I'll be sticking to a 50str build.

On another note: I'm looking to get the cursed and defiled root chalice asap, so I can get the uncanny Wheel. Chalices are a pain :(
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/12/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu May 14, 2015 10:47 am

Lost or Uncanny are ideal for this weapon. I actually prefer lost because farming RFC Ihyll Rom stinks. The spiders OHKO and most of Rom's spells will OHKO. Amygdala is far easier to farm and goes a lot quicker. He can be found in LLR and Izs with glyphs, but I have yet to find one for cursed Ihyll

Update:
I got a waning abyssal nourishing. 21.5%ATK +3%rally -11%kin. I only killed Amy twice before I got it. So, with 2 gems at 21.5% and one at 18.2% with +8.7PAtk, I'm rocking a solid 708AR.

My projected AR with 3 21.5% gems (not counting secondary increases or buffs) will be
325(1.215^3) + 64(1.215^3)
= 582 + 114
= 696

My current damage output is massive. I'm dealing a ton of damage per hit to most enemies. Vs one of the RFC ihyll dregling enemies, i'm hitting 1053 on a 2h r2 and 1121 with one buff.

I also corrected the information on the wiki regarding the Logwheel, including buff hp drain percentages and how you can gain free buffs if your max hp is low enough.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/15/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat May 16, 2015 12:43 am

Since I have most of the gems I need, I have decided to do a new round of testing. This is now NG+ against the CY axeman. Numbers in parentheses after damage values are increases from the no-gem control data.

Logarius Wheel+10 at 30/25 with no gems
AR: 325P+64A
DMG:
256UTF
343TF
428TFR2

With +21.5%ATK, 2.8% rally, -11.3%kin
AR:395P+78A
DMG:
332UTF (+76)
431TF (+88)
546TFR2 (+118)

With +9.1%P, +72.5ARC, -9HP
AR: 355P+137A
DMG:
344UTF (+88)
426TF (+83)
629TFR2 (+201)

As I suspected, the +flat adds AR to each hit of the multi-hit attacks, which will essentially destroy anything you use a dash r1 or an r2 against. I'm rather disappointed, personally, because pvp with this weapon will be defined by dash r1's, but I suppose it can't be helped. From didn't think about the math too well.

Here is a comparison of two sets of VERY unequal gems, but it should demonstrate how powerful those flat gems are because of that multi-hit:

With +8.8%P, +29.3ARC, +7.4%P, +25.9ARC, +9.1%P, +72.5ARC, -9hp
AR: 414P+192A
DMG:
457UTF (+201)
518TF (+175)
841TFR2 (+413)

With+18.2%ATK, +8.7P, -5% beast, +21.5%ATK, +15 fire, -12.2% beast, +21.5%ATK, +2.8% rally, -11.3% kin
AR: 576P+113A
DMG:
550UTF (+294)
684TF (+341)
886TFR2 (+458)

Two out of 3 of my ATK gems are abyssal and only one of the +flat gems was high-grade, yet the damage increases were very close with the multi-hit R2 attack. This means 3 of the +flat's should greatly out-damage the ATK gems, which is ultimately very bad for the game. I think From needs to balance this because the multi-hit should not take AR increases per hit, but as a percent. It turns out that my initial hypothesis that the +flat's may turn this weapon into a OHKO monster may have been right, but not because of the arcane multiplier; because of the multi-hit AR multiplier. Given this information, the best setup for this weapon is probably going to be strength in order to use that %P multiplier on flat gems. Unfortunately, it reduces the weapon to nothing more than another arcane rifle spear.

Edit: Just got better flat gems. Here are the test results

+9.1%P, +67.5A, +8.8%P, +67.5A, +3%stam cost, +9.1%P, +70A, -11.3% kin
AR: 421P+271A
DMG:
531UTF (+275)
603TF (+260)
1063TFR2 (+635)

Interestingly enough, the buff doesn't scale with the added AR. I'm still getting a 14AR increase on the +flat, but a 24AR increase on the +ATK setup. The damage comparison? +flat still wins by a large margin, dealing rather pathetic initial damage, but cranking that damage up to almost double with the additional hits on the MHA's
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/15/15

Postby phero » Sat May 16, 2015 8:38 am

Man, those multihit attacks are pretty crazy with flat arc gems. I wonder how revving adds to those.

Where are you getting those %P / +flat arc gems?
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/15/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat May 16, 2015 11:12 am

phero wrote:Man, those multihit attacks are pretty crazy with flat arc gems. I wonder how revving adds to those.

Where are you getting those %P / +flat arc gems?

Revs don't do much for the flat gems because the flats are added after the buffs. You'll get the same damage increase as you would on a no-gem wheel unless you use an arcane%+flat.

As for flat gem locations, they drop from RFC brainsuckers. Radials are reliably found in specific Ihyll dungeons on regular versions of the enemy, but you can farm high grade flats from the brainsucker boss in the RFC izs dungeons they are found in. Took me about 2 hours to get all 3 of mine and I'm dealing over 1k to most enemies on dash r1's. Doesn't feel at all legitimate, but it is making things a lot easier in terms of farming. I was hitting about 700 per run r1 against Rom in RFC Ihyll while trying to get my last abyssal nourishing for a final damage comparison

Update: Still no abyssal nourishing, but I did some damage testing in PvP. My average TF dash r1 hit about 350 with my 3 nourishing gems and about 500 per hit with the flat gems. R2's were not easy to land, but i hit a solid 600-700 on a 1h charged r2 with my nourishing setup. The flat setup dealt substantially lower damage on all regular hits. Basically, the nourishing allows the best playstyle balance while the flats are all about the dash and r2 attacks.

Something I noticed about the play of this weapon is that it excels as a counterattack weapon and can trade hits well, but needs support from your secondary weapon if you don't want to fall into a pattern. Unfortunately, it seems many players are content to spam their gun for that lucky countershot, so you'll have to slap them on the back with the wheel in order to avoid that chip damage and punish them.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Mon May 18, 2015 9:34 am

So I got my hands on an uncanny wheel, upgraded it to +10, and farmed some %p / flat arc gems.

My uncanny setup:
8,4%p / 67,5 arc / -10,1% kin
9,1%p / 65 arc / +2,9% stamcost
9,5%p / 70 arc /-11,3% beasts

My normal wheel setup (for testing purposes):
15% all atk
22,3%p / 5,2% charge / -60,8 dur
19,8%p / -8 hp

Not the most fair comparison by any means, but this is all I have right now. Tested on NG+ axeman with a 50str/11arc build.

Uncanny results:
1h 599 (no gems: 310, difference of +289)
2h 582 (no gems: 318, difference of +264)
2h R2 1023

Normal results:
1h 586
2h 526
2h R2 664

With the flat arc gems, the 2h dash r1's are really high. It's a bit tricky to test because the target has to be alive for all of the wheel spins to hit. I was doing 800-1000 dmg on dash r1's on the brutes below the axeman.

Anyway your 30/25 build does very well compared to my 50/11 build while having about 6-7 points less invested in damage stats. Your 1H does a bit less damage, but your 2H is a little bit better. I do wonder how all atk gems fare on my build vs yours (your 2H R1 is really high), but I won't have a lot of time to farm them soon I'm afraid. In any case the flat arc gems are pretty nuts for either build if you're utilizing the MHA's.

Edit: corrected gains compared to no gems, as they were mistakingly based on the NG damage data.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue May 19, 2015 1:28 pm

phero wrote:So I got my hands on an uncanny wheel, upgraded it to +10, and farmed some %p / flat arc gems.

My uncanny setup:
8,4%p / 67,5 arc / -10,1% kin
9,1%p / 65 arc / +2,9% stamcost
9,5%p / 70 arc /-11,3% beasts

My normal wheel setup (for testing purposes):
15% all atk
22,3%p / 5,2% charge / -60,8 dur
19,8%p / -8 hp

Not the most fair comparison by any means, but this is all I have right now. Tested on NG+ axeman with a 50str/11arc build.

Edit: corrected gains compared to no gems, as they were mistakingly based on the NG damage data.

Unfortunately, the ATK gems will not be as good on a 50/11 as a split. I honestly think you're better off using top tier blunt gems or +flat arc's that boost blunt damage ( if that's even possible/feasible to do) in order to maximize your overall damage. Sadly, blunt gems do not contribute to visceral attacks, so those will be very weak. That said, the 1h version of the wheel will hit incredibly hard with 3 blunt gems and can be swapped out for your alt weapon for visceral attacks.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Tue May 19, 2015 2:53 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:Unfortunately, the ATK gems will not be as good on a 50/11 as a split. I honestly think you're better off using top tier blunt gems or +flat arc's that boost blunt damage ( if that's even possible/feasible to do) in order to maximize your overall damage. Sadly, blunt gems do not contribute to visceral attacks, so those will be very weak. That said, the 1h version of the wheel will hit incredibly hard with 3 blunt gems and can be swapped out for your alt weapon for visceral attacks.


Well we have some data to compare regarding all atk gems.

In a previous post you stated your increases when adding one all atk gem:

With +21.5%ATK, 2.8% rally, -11.3%kin
AR:395P+78A
DMG:
332UTF (+76)
431TF (+88)
546TFR2 (+118)


I have tested adding one 15% all atk gem on the 50/11 char. Results:
1H: 372 (no gems: 310, difference of +62)
2H: 379 (no gems: 318, difference of +61)

Doesn't seem all that bad, considering the difference in gem quality. However I don't know how stacking the gems interacts with my pure build vs your spread build. And ofcourse you have about 7 points less spend, but I'm not sure if that affects the margins by a whole lot. Perhaps you can test with one %15 all atk gem so we can compare more directly.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue May 19, 2015 3:51 pm

phero wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:Unfortunately, the ATK gems will not be as good on a 50/11 as a split. I honestly think you're better off using top tier blunt gems or +flat arc's that boost blunt damage ( if that's even possible/feasible to do) in order to maximize your overall damage. Sadly, blunt gems do not contribute to visceral attacks, so those will be very weak. That said, the 1h version of the wheel will hit incredibly hard with 3 blunt gems and can be swapped out for your alt weapon for visceral attacks.


Well we have some data to compare regarding all atk gems.

In a previous post you stated your increases when adding one all atk gem:

With +21.5%ATK, 2.8% rally, -11.3%kin
AR:395P+78A
DMG:
332UTF (+76)
431TF (+88)
546TFR2 (+118)


I have tested adding one 15% all atk gem on the 50/11 char. Results:
1H: 372 (no gems: 310, difference of +62)
2H: 379 (no gems: 318, difference of +61)

Doesn't seem all that bad, considering the difference in gem quality. However I don't know how stacking the gems interacts with my pure build vs your spread build. And ofcourse you have about 7 points less spend, but I'm not sure if that affects the margins by a whole lot. Perhaps you can test with one %15 all atk gem so we can compare more directly.

Extrapolating your damage, I get +88 damage increase for a 21.5% gem. Multiplied together, that's going to be approximately 328 damage total, give or take. It's not a bad option, to be sure, but I don't think the +ATK is going to be as good as the +blunt with a lot of strength invested. As it is, the majority of your damage is going to be physical and you're losing out on a lot of scaling without arcane investment. If we're thinking about damage, you gain 4-5 damage per point up to 25A, which is about 65 damage without gems. Add in the ATK gems and you're going to multiply that damage, which is going to be quite a bit more in the TF state than you get on a 50/10 logwheel. That's why i'm thinking the ATK gems might be better on a split while the blunt gems should be better on a str-heavy build. If you had 20/50, then i'd say the best damage gains would probably be from ARC or ATK gems rather than physical.

Let's look at the AR as well:

50/10 Logwheel+10 no gems
387phys
51 arc

Three 21.5% gems give you a total multiplier of 1.793613375, which results in
694 phys
92 arc

Three 32.6% blunt gems gives you a physical multiplier of 2.331473976, which results in
902 phys
51 arc

If my math is correct, the loss in damage in going from ATK to blunt will not be very large for the TF state and you will gain a ton of damage in the physical dept. I wouldn't doubt that a charged r2 could hit well over 1k in pvp. I did hit almost 700 with it on my split, after all.

Logarius Wheel+10 at 30/25 with no gems
AR: 325P+64A
DMG:
256UTF
343TF
428TFR2

Same setup with a +18%P gem
AR: 383P+64A
DMG:
313UTF (+57)
377TF (+34)
474TFR2 (+46)

The estimated damage increase from 3 blunt gems on my 30/25 split are respectively
+421UTF
+251TF
+340TFR2

which, scaling the damage up as a percentage based on the AR difference between a 30s and 50s logwheel, equates to about

+501UTF
+299TF
+405TFR2

The estimated 328 you get from ATK gems for both UTF and TF seems quite low compared to what you could gain from blunt gems. That's about 53% less of a damage increase in the UTF state if you choose ATK over blunt. If you split or go higher arcane, this will obviously change, but I don't think you're going to get as much bang out of those ATK gems as a split and will therefore be hindering yourself instead of utilizing your strength (no pun intended)

EDIT: my AR for the 50/10 setup was wrong. I updated the calcs, which were even greater in difference than I had before. All attacks for this weapon, except for the arcane AoE transformation attack and the visceral attack, have blunt damage. They are perfect for a physical version of this weapon.
Last edited by Astrichthyes on Tue May 19, 2015 4:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Tue May 19, 2015 4:08 pm

I wonder if blunt affects all attacks in both modes. I have my doubts, but I haven't tested this yet.

Also, a 50/10 has 387 + 51 = 438 AR;
And a 50/10 with 3x21,5 ATK has 694 + 92 = 786 AR.

That's 439 and 787 for 50/11.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue May 19, 2015 4:27 pm

phero wrote:I wonder if blunt affects all attacks in both modes. I have my doubts, but I haven't tested this yet.

Also, a 50/10 has 387 + 51 = 438 AR;
And a 50/10 with 3x21,5 ATK has 694 + 92 = 786 AR.

That's 439 and 787 for 50/11.

Updated my calcs in my last post
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Tue May 19, 2015 4:36 pm

Alright, definitely worth checking out. Thanks for the calculations. Btw, I've also seen %blunt + flat arc gems, but I'm not sure if they roll higher than %p + flat arc.

Do you know where the top blunt gems drop? I cannot see any on the spreadsheet, but I'm probably missing something (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0).

Edit: never mind, found the answer on reddit. Lucky me, I can farm gems for kirk and log at the same time, off a first boss.
Edit2: although I'm still not sure where to find non-radial blunts.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue May 19, 2015 6:48 pm

phero wrote:Alright, definitely worth checking out. Thanks for the calculations. Btw, I've also seen %blunt + flat arc gems, but I'm not sure if they roll higher than %p + flat arc.

Do you know where the top blunt gems drop? I cannot see any on the spreadsheet, but I'm probably missing something (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0).

Edit: never mind, found the answer on reddit. Lucky me, I can farm gems for kirk and log at the same time, off a first boss.
Edit2: although I'm still not sure where to find non-radial blunts.

The only non-radial blunt gems I know of are triangular from the Watchers boss in Izs glyph 5pwujscd. As for blunt%+flatARC, they seem to be a rare drop from brainsuckers and should give a slightly higher percentage than plain physical versions. You'll have to farm quite a while for those, so it may not be worth it compared to the plain phys%+flatARC unless you have nothing better to do or it will net you a big damage breakpoint such as one fewer hit to KO against a max bluntdef build in pvp, etc.

The reason the blunts are not listed in the spreadsheet is because they limit the effectiveness of weapons such as Kirk. Thus, they are not as desired and are often considered white noise when farming. They don't consider the Logwheel - which is purely blunt in the physical side of things and will gladly accept the extra 5% per gem - because it is not a very popular weapon at the moment. In actuality, this weapon hits pretty damn hard if you build around it and use the right gems. I've been consistently getting 1k per dash r1 with flat gems in pve and 500 in pvp. I just acquired a 27.2%ARC gem and will be testing it very soon. I'm guessing that the damage increase will be about the same or a little higher than the ATK gem in the TF state (with a slightly better buff on top of that), but will be quite a bit lower in the UTF state due to the terrible scaling.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Wed May 20, 2015 2:18 am

I was seeing similair numbers with the flat gems. PvP invaders almost lost half their hp on a 2H dash.

It's a shame that the waning slot is only really good for ATK gems. Would be pretty awesome to be able to have both a %blunt and a flat arc version of this weapon, being able to switch depending on the situation. I'm already loving the versatility provided by being able to switch from physical to arc on the spot depending on what enemy I'm facing. Combining that with all the different stat and gem setups this weapon has, it might be one of the most versatile weapons in BB in that regard.

I might try a 2x %blunt + 1x %p / flat arc combo and see how that balances out. That way I'd still get a little bit out of the 2H MHA multiplier. But perhaps it's better simply going all in on one or the other.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed May 20, 2015 9:03 pm

phero wrote:I was seeing similair numbers with the flat gems. PvP invaders almost lost half their hp on a 2H dash.

It's a shame that the waning slot is only really good for ATK gems. Would be pretty awesome to be able to have both a %blunt and a flat arc version of this weapon, being able to switch depending on the situation. I'm already loving the versatility provided by being able to switch from physical to arc on the spot depending on what enemy I'm facing. Combining that with all the different stat and gem setups this weapon has, it might be one of the most versatile weapons in BB in that regard.

I might try a 2x %blunt + 1x %p / flat arc combo and see how that balances out. That way I'd still get a little bit out of the 2H MHA multiplier. But perhaps it's better simply going all in on one or the other.


What I've read is that defs in this game function a lot like they did in DeS, such that higher AR receives proportionally smaller damage reductions (ie 100AR reduced to 40dmg, 200AR reduced to 120 damage, etc). You should actually gain more damage with polarization. I think the only exception for the Logwheel might be a split because of the large AR gains from both stats. If you run 3 blunts vs 2 blunts and a flat, the former should deal more damage because it's focused on one def. Since a split will never be able to deal as much damage in either form as a single-stat-gem'd build, it needs to boost both to maximize AR. In your case, on a 50/10ish setup, physical should be your primary focus. I couldn't tell you that all blunts will outdamage all +flats, but I can assure you that going all blunts will boost your damage output by a considerable amount compared to a 2-1 or 1-2 split.

Because gem slots are a little inflexible, you will probably have to decide between +flats and blunts on an Uncanny Logwheel. The normal Logwheel can run a rapid poison (buildup counts per hit with MHA's) or ARC% setup. The Lost Logwheel seems to be the best candidate for +ATK or perhaps a rapid poison setup.

Overall, I agree that this weapon has incredible versatility compared to most of the weapons in the game. Tonitrus and the Logwheel are the only weapons that are purely blunt and have a self-buff, but unlike the Tonitrus, the wheel has hidden scaling modifiers for its transformed state.

Something isn't making sense to me. If the revs on the wheel increase ArcAR by 10% each, how is it that the damage increases are so high from the arcane portion of the weapon? I was looking through the stat sheet on damage comparisons and found that the damage reduction for arcane damage is generally high, yet the wheel seems to be dealing a lot of arcane damage overall.

"Three gem Burial Blade has 623 physical AR - coincidentally, this is exactly the AR of the Reiterpallasch. Assuming the two weapons are doing the same amount of physical damage (524), only 28 of that extra 95 arcane damage on the Burial Blade is actually making it through. I really doubt the Yharnam villagers have 70% arcane resistance. . .highly unusual.

Edit: though the Reiterpallasch's first hit is a thrust. Going off the second hit, which is pure physical but has an attack modifier of 1.05, we get an adjusted value of 533 for the Reiterpallasch. So the Burial Blade is really only getting 19 extra damage from the arcane" - jamalabd from https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... l_weapons/


If 95AR is being reduced to only 19 damage on the BB, how is the wheel dealing so much damage since the physical damage gains are reduced by about half in the TF state compared to the UTF state? My hunch is that the buffs add less than 10% per rev, meaning my estimated 146AR at 25A in the TF state may be low, especially if damage mitigation is so high on low ArcAR values.

I'll be doing some testing soon to approximate the AR of the TF state. I also thought of something else that would explain the damage increases from the buffs: what if the gained AR is further multiplied as if it is part of the base AR as it is shown in the UTF state? That would explain my 40ish damage increase on a 24AR buff. More testing to come regarding the buffs and approximate TF AR values
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby phero » Thu May 21, 2015 3:11 am

I won't be playing a lot the coming month, but I look forward to seeing how much damage a 3x blunt setup is going to do once I do get those gems.

As for the math, the only thing I can add is that the official guide states a 0,1 change to the arc multiplier per rev (as in 1,0 for 0 revs and 1,4 for 4 revs; but perhaps you knew this already). It's also likely that the digital version of the guide will add more details on the exact scaling mechanics in 2H mode (the paper guide is lacking that info), but unfortunately it won't be released until somewhere in June.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/17/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu May 21, 2015 6:16 pm

phero wrote:I won't be playing a lot the coming month, but I look forward to seeing how much damage a 3x blunt setup is going to do once I do get those gems.

As for the math, the only thing I can add is that the official guide states a 0,1 change to the arc multiplier per rev (as in 1,0 for 0 revs and 1,4 for 4 revs; but perhaps you knew this already). It's also likely that the digital version of the guide will add more details on the exact scaling mechanics in 2H mode (the paper guide is lacking that info), but unfortunately it won't be released until somewhere in June.

What I've found in my testing is that, while significant, the arcane scaling on this weapon seems secondary to the physical, as equal respective gem boosts (ex 18%p vs 18%a) give very similar damage increases in the TF state, but the physical gems have much higher UTF damage. That, and the fact that the weapon benefits greatly from blunt gems, which will automatically set them a tier higher for total overall output. The only exception to this seems to be when the revs are added on.

I moved all of my calculations to the OP. Finally, I feel I've gotten somewhere with this thing.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun May 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Updated the OP with the approximate base AR's and their scaling in the TF state. The math is honestly very ugly, but there's little that can be done about it as far as I know. :horse:
The slope formulas I used should be quite close, as they draw from a decent-sized spread between the min's and max's, and the adjustments I made to the base AR's and scaling should be within a reasonable margin of the actual values. Hopefully this helps anyone interested in this weapon to build around it.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Mon May 25, 2015 2:53 am

Great job, should be more than enough info for anyone wondering how to build with this weapon.

So after all these tests, what are your thoughts on the best setup for this weapon? I'm thinking, based on your posts:
- Pure str with blunts seems the best choice for the highest average damage across all forms.
- Split with flat arcs seems best if you really want to maximise pvp burst at the cost of everything else.
- Poison build is best to destroy bosses and other high HP targets, and to confuse people in pvp, at the cost of overall damage.
- And if you can build for 50/25+, nourishing gems will start pulling ahead.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon May 25, 2015 3:23 am

phero wrote:Great job, should be more than enough info for anyone wondering how to build with this weapon.

So after all these tests, what are your thoughts on the best setup for this weapon? I'm thinking, based on your posts:
- Pure str with blunts seems the best choice for the highest average damage across all forms.
- Split with flat arcs seems best if you really want to maximise pvp burst at the cost of everything else.
- Poison build is best to destroy bosses and other high HP targets, and to confuse people in pvp, at the cost of overall damage.
- And if you can build for 50/25+, nourishing gems will start pulling ahead.

Thank you.

I truly believe your summary to be the best use of this weapon. PvP setups will likely look like this
-20/10 vit gouge with rapid poison
-20/50 with 3 flats or arcanes
-50/10 with 3 blunts or maybe flats
-30/25 with 3 flats or nourishing
-50/25 with 3 flats, blunts, or nourishing
-50/50 with 3 blunts, flats, or nourishing
-99/99 with 3 nourishing

Flats will probably still be very good for burst damage with investment up to 50 and even beyond that, but they'll be doing proportionally less for you as you gain additional stat investment for damage and your other attacks will suffer a lot more since you aren't taking advantage of that extra scaling while others are.

As you suggest, rapid poison won't be that great if you're only dealing an additional 200-300 damage in pvp and less than 200 per hit without the poison. If you can get 450+ per hit against a player with 1k hp, then you're doing quite well and almost rivalling the flat setup. If not, it will still be good against bosses with a ton of hp that you can dash r1 spam all day without having to maintain spacing. That said, most bosses have extremely high RPRes, so flats may end up being better in the end.

Edit: i'm going mad trying to find these blunt gems. I've fought 3 different sets of watchers at least 40 times and haven't gotten a single blunt. 2 thrust, but no blunt.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:49 pm

Found my blunt gems. Haven't gotten any from Izs, but they seem to drop occasionally from Ihyll MW's. Here's my research thread on that, which is posted both on the wiki and reddit:
viewtopic.php?f=96&t=20713
http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comm ... drop_list/

I decided to test a Heavy blood gem to see if there are any damage modifiers the gems may have beyond an AR boost or any other hidden benefits. Since the Logwheel has the best strength scaling in the game, I thought it would be an appropriate testing candidate.

50/10 LW+10 no gems
AR: 387P+51A
DMG:
326UTF
330TF

@ +27.2 STR scaling
AR: 432P+51A
DMG:
373UTF
362TF

Damage gains from physical AR are 1.04 in the UTF state and .71 in the TF state. In other words, the damage gains are about 3% better in the UTF state per AR and about 11% per AR in the TF state, but you lose 12% of your physAR for a single gem in both instances. Just confirming that these gems are as terrible as they seem because they up your scaling from your base AR (which is +45AR with one gem) whereas % gems multiply total AR (which is +105AR with one gem).
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:37 pm

Yeah. I've done the math and, if I'm understanding how +scaling gems work, then with 99 in a scaling stat and a weapon with 0 scaling in any stats, a +scaling gem will be on-par with a +% damage gem of equal strength. In any other case, +% damage is just better.

So since there are 0 weapons with no gem slots and no scaling, +scaling is literally never worth using under any circumstance, while a +% damage gem of equal strength is available.
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