Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Discuss the multiple items and magic consuming techniques of Yharnam

Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:53 pm

Juli wrote:Yeah. I've done the math and, if I'm understanding how +scaling gems work, then with 99 in a scaling stat and a weapon with 0 scaling in any stats, a +scaling gem will be on-par with a +% damage gem of equal strength. In any other case, +% damage is just better.

So since there are 0 weapons with no gem slots and no scaling, +scaling is literally never worth using under any circumstance, while a +% damage gem of equal strength is available.


I can see it maybe being useful if you want to give the Blade of Mercy some strength scaling or Logarius' Wheel skill scaling. Maybe if you had 50 in both strength and skill, you'd get more out of Logarius' Wheel with sharp gems than you would with tempering gems?
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:10 am

Tsmp wrote:
Juli wrote:Yeah. I've done the math and, if I'm understanding how +scaling gems work, then with 99 in a scaling stat and a weapon with 0 scaling in any stats, a +scaling gem will be on-par with a +% damage gem of equal strength. In any other case, +% damage is just better.

So since there are 0 weapons with no gem slots and no scaling, +scaling is literally never worth using under any circumstance, while a +% damage gem of equal strength is available.


I can see it maybe being useful if you want to give the Blade of Mercy some strength scaling or Logarius' Wheel skill scaling. Maybe if you had 50 in both strength and skill, you'd get more out of Logarius' Wheel with sharp gems than you would with tempering gems?

A top tier scaling gem will, at best, raise 0 scaling to E scaling. It's not efficient because you increase scaling from a single stat whereas a percent gem doesn't give a damn and automatically draws from a larger pool of AR. Unless these scaling gems multiply together like the percent gems do, they will be outclassed from 0-99 on every single weapon. The only exception I see for this is when you use a low-base-AR weapon that scales very poorly on the stat you have invested in (ex BoM on a Str build). Even that might not be enough to make it competent since we have flat gems that are probably better anyway

Test 2:

LW+10 vs CYAM with +23.1 SS, +8.7p, +24.4 SS
AR: 475p+51A
DMG:
418UTF
395TF

Dmg efficiency ratios for this gem combo are 1.045UTF and 0.74TF. The scaling gems MIGHT be able to overtake the percent gems at 99s, but no sooner than that and doubtfully at all. In order to outdamage the percents at 50 in your primary damage stat, the scaling gems would probably have to be around 29-32, which would be an abyssal gem that does not exist as far as we know, and would have to multiply together. They are simply additive, so the +45AR I got on my 50/10 LW+10 with the 27.2 scaling gem would net me 135 physAR if I had 3. Multiply that AR by about 1.05 and you get your approximate damage increase. For reference, I did 725 damage per r1 with 3 27.2% gems, so those scaling gems are looking dismally underwhelming.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:09 am

Astrichthyes wrote:The only exception I see for this is when you use a low-base-AR weapon that scales very poorly on the stat you have invested in (ex BoM on a Str build).

Nope. Scaling works off of base AR. Here's the formula (without gems):

Total AR for a given damage type = Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2

Coefficient is the number that the various letter grades stand for.
Saturation is the % of total damage you're getting from a scaling stat. I.E., at 0 Strength, you'd have 0% scaling saturation, while at 99 Strength you'd have 100%.

Coefficient1/Saturation1 is for the first scaling stat, and Coefficient2/Saturation2 is for the second scaling stat, assuming there is one.

So basically, a scaling coefficient gives you a percentage of your base damage as a bonus. E.G. Kirkhammer has a 100 Str scaling coefficient, which means if you have 99 strength, you get +100% base damage (in this case, +210).

When you add a +% damage gems, it looks like this:

Total AR for a given damage type = (Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2) * (1+Gem1%) * (1+Gem2%) * (1+Gem3%)

Now I haven't seen a whole lot of testing on +scaling gems, but based on my understanding, they work like so:

Total AR for a given damage type = Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1+Gem1+Gem2+Gem3/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2

Basically, +% damage effectively gives "+% ALL AR of a given type". If you have 210 base AR + 210 bonus AR, you get +27.2% of 420 AR. Meanwhile, by increasing the scaling of a weapon, you are effectively giving your weapon "+x% BASE AR of a given type, and only if you have 99 in the stat you are applying a scaling gem to." So if you have 99 Strength and have 210 + 210 AR on your Kirkhammer, applying a +scaling gem means you get +27.2% of 210, rather than of 420. So in order for a +scaling gem to compete with a +%damage gem, you need:

-0 bonus AR from scaling from any stat for the given damage type on on the weapon you're putting it on.
-99 in the stat that the gem increases the scaling of.

And even if this were possible, you run into what Astrichthyes pointed out, which is that +scaling stacks additively, while +% damage stacks multiplicatively! Even if you had a theoretical weapon with 0 scaling in any physical stats, and gave it a +scaling gem, it would merely be on-par with +% damage gems if you had only 1 slot, and then fall behind as you unlocked more slots!

It's possible that I'm completely misunderstanding the way +scaling gems work, but I've seen no evidence that they work any differently than how I illustrated above. I am fairly sure that +scaling gems are Strictly Worse than +% damage gems and should never be used as long as you have access to equally powerful +% damage gems.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:14 am

Juli wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:The only exception I see for this is when you use a low-base-AR weapon that scales very poorly on the stat you have invested in (ex BoM on a Str build).

Nope. Scaling works off of base AR. Here's the formula (without gems):

Total AR for a given damage type = Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2

Coefficient is the number that the various letter grades stand for.
Saturation is the % of total damage you're getting from a scaling stat. I.E., at 0 Strength, you'd have 0% scaling saturation, while at 99 Strength you'd have 100%.

Coefficient1/Saturation1 is for the first scaling stat, and Coefficient2/Saturation2 is for the second scaling stat, assuming there is one.

So basically, a scaling coefficient gives you a percentage of your base damage as a bonus. E.G. Kirkhammer has a 100 Str scaling coefficient, which means if you have 99 strength, you get +100% base damage (in this case, +210).

When you add a +% damage gems, it looks like this:

Total AR for a given damage type = (Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2) * (1+Gem1%) * (1+Gem2%) * (1+Gem3%)

Now I haven't seen a whole lot of testing on +scaling gems, but based on my understanding, they work like so:

Total AR for a given damage type = Base AR + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient1+Gem1+Gem2+Gem3/100) * Scaling Saturation1 + Base AR * (Scaling Coefficient2/100) * Scaling Saturation2

Basically, +% damage effectively gives "+% ALL AR of a given type". If you have 210 base AR + 210 bonus AR, you get +27.2% of 420 AR. Meanwhile, by increasing the scaling of a weapon, you are effectively giving your weapon "+x% BASE AR of a given type, and only if you have 99 in the stat you are applying a scaling gem to." So if you have 99 Strength and have 210 + 210 AR on your Kirkhammer, applying a +scaling gem means you get +27.2% of 210, rather than of 420. So in order for a +scaling gem to compete with a +%damage gem, you need:

-0 bonus AR from scaling from any stat for the given damage type on on the weapon you're putting it on.
-99 in the stat that the gem increases the scaling of.

And even if this were possible, you run into what Astrichthyes pointed out, which is that +scaling stacks additively, while +% damage stacks multiplicatively! Even if you had a theoretical weapon with 0 scaling in any physical stats, and gave it a +scaling gem, it would merely be on-par with +% damage gems if you had only 1 slot, and then fall behind as you unlocked more slots!

It's possible that I'm completely misunderstanding the way +scaling gems work, but I've seen no evidence that they work any differently than how I illustrated above. I am fairly sure that +scaling gems are Strictly Worse than +% damage gems and should never be used as long as you have access to equally powerful +% damage gems.

:gp: This is absolutely correct. I simply pointed out BoM because it has 0 str scaling and is an example of a weapon it MIGHT work on. Regardless of whether it is on-par with a percent gem, it's still an inferior choice because it does not multiply AND it's harder to get them. In other words, it's no more than white noise when you're farming. It disappoints me that they didn't multiply because they may have actually stood a chance of outcompeting the percent gems since they have about 5% higher damage efficiency and would retain equal scaling on a single-stat weapon, making them slightly better, and would only continue to be better with additional stat investment because of that higher efficiency ratio.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:16 am

Astrichthyes, have you been able to test your blunt setup yet?
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:20 pm

phero wrote:Astrichthyes, have you been able to test your blunt setup yet?

yes, and the damage is a little higher, but I only have 2: +30.4% and +31.5%. Honestly, the only thing I don't like about the Logwheel is that the 1h attack modifiers are lackluster compared to the other strength weapons. Barring the charge attack, they are all relatively low, so the wheel will probably not do quite as much damage as Kirk by my estimations. +flats actually seem to be doing better on my pure strength than my split, but i haven't been able to test in PvP due to a mysterious lack of opponents. The adversarial SRRC has yielded no results thus far and hizzngr3 was empty when I last checked

@Juli: here's a little math to back up what you said. Let's just say we have a hypothetical cannon that has 3 slots and 0 scaling. That gives you 600 base AR. Let's also say the maximum scaling and maximum bloodtinge gems both max out at 28.

Percent gems:
600*(1.28^3)*(dmg efficiency ratio) =
600*(1.28^3)*(1) =
1258AR

Scaling gems:
600*(3*.28 + 1)(1.05) =
1159 effective AR

If scaling gems multiplied together, the AR would be the same as the percent gems, but the damage would be multiplied by 105%. At 1:1 efficiency on the percent gems and 1.05 on the scaling gems, it would look like this:

600*(1.28^3)(1.05) =
1321 effective AR

If a weapon had less than 5% scaling off of their base damage, less than 2 scaling stats, and the scaling gems multiplied together, the scaling gems could outclass or equal the effectiveness of the percent gems. The only way they would be better is under these conditions, which do not exist in this game, therefore these gems are completely obsolete. Perhaps From will change this in the future. Having such gimped gems is never good for a game like this. They might as well not exist so that the drop rate for the other gems is better.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:17 am

I found a 23.6% nourishing gem from the watchers in izs, which should change things a little bit for the Logwheel if they are farmable in Pthum as well. Calculating 3 of these stacked, the multiplier should be 1.888.

30/25 Logwheel+10 with 3 of these top-tier nourishing gems will have approximately 613 physAR and 120 arcAR in the UTF state. As for the TF state, I don't know if my approximated AR's are accurate, but the wheel would have 390P+498A. Rev that 4 times and you're gonna hit like a loaded freight train with about 700 arcAR. This is, of course, assuming that my estimations are correct or close.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:32 am

So, after fooling around a bit in hizzngr3 today, I'd like to discuss the Logwheel and how it compares to the other strength weapon it's often paired with: the Kirkhammer. Both are admittedly good in their own respects, but what makes the Logwheel pale in comparison to the Sword in the Stone in most regards?

At 50s/13d/10a, the weapon AR's are:

Logwheel+10
387P+51A

Kirkhammer+10
396P

Looks like the two should be relatively equal, right? Now, let's add their respective top-tier physical gems

Logwheel+10 with three 32.6% blunt gems
902P+51A

Kirkhammer+10 with three 27.2% physical gems
816P

Looks like the Logwheel has a nice edge on the Kirk based on this stat sheet, right? Now, let's consider effective AR's after moveset multipliers

Logwheel at 902P+51A

UTF
R1 = 1.00(902P+51A) = 902P+51A
QS R1 = 0.82(902P+51A) = 739P+41A
run R1 = 1.08(902P+51A) = 974P+55A
R2 = 1.18(902P+51A) = 1064P+60A
Charged R2 = 1.63(902P+51A) = 1470P+83A
Run R2 = R2 = 1064P+60A
Leaping R2 = 1.33(902P+51A) = 1199P+67A
TF Attack = 0.92(902P+51A) = 829P+46A

TF, I won't even touch because we aren't 100% sure that my estimated AR's are accurate. Now, let's look at the Kirk:

Kirkhammer at 816P

UTF
R1 = 1.00(816P) = 816P
QS R1 = R1 = 816P
Run R1 = 1.10(816P) = 897P
R2 = 1.40(816P) = 1142P
Charged R2 = 1.70(816P) = 1387P
Run R2 = 1.35(816P) = 1101P
Leap R2 = Charged R2 = 1387P
TF attack = 1.50(816P) = 1224P

TF
R1 = 1.40(816P) = 1142P
QS R1 = 1.20(816P) = 979P
Run R1 = 0.80(816P) = 652P
R2 = UTF charged R2 = 1387P
Charged R2 = 3.10(816P) = 2529P
Run R2 = 1.50(816P) = 1224P
Leap R2 = 1.60(816P) = 1305P
L2 = Run R2 = 1224P
TF attack = L2 = 1224P

So, the attack these weapons use most in combat are the QS r1's, running attacks, leap attacks, and charged R2's. Respectively, in a TF Kirk vs UTF Log comparison, we're looking at:

R1: 902P+51A vs 1142P
QS R1: 739P+41A vs 979P
Run R1: 974P+55A vs 652P
Charged R2: 1470P+83A vs 2529P
Run R2 = 1064P+60A vs 1224P
Leap R2 = 1199P+67A vs 1305P

In all but the run R1's, a plain-phys-gem TF Kirk will outdamage an all-blunt-gem Logwheel, sometimes by a huge margin. It's quite shocking that the AR for the 1h sword is similar or higher than a lot of the attacks the Wheel has because the weight class is so different. Why the discrepancy? Perhaps the wheel was meant only to be a joke. Or, perhaps the weapon was not compared to the other weapons in the balancing process and therefore forgotten. Theoretically, based on the weight this weapon has to it, the speed of most of its attacks, and the short range it has, it should deal considerable damage. That charged R2 is unreasonably weak compared to the Kirk's and has no follow-up attack. In other words...

This weapon may have no business being in this game since it is so gimped compared to its competition. It's fun to play, but I don't think it's as competitive as most of the other weapons. Maybe it'll get a moveset multiplier buff.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:26 am

Thank you for that analysis.

One thing you're not mentioning is the fact that the 1H wheel still allows you to shoot vs a 2H kirk. Although with blunt gems the viscerals would ofcourse be very poor in comparison. Also, the 1H wheel has great stunlock in pve vs the 1H kirk.

It's a shame the numbers turn out this way though. Given the speed of the move set, the 1H wheel should definitely do some more damage than a 1H kirk.

I don't think FROM intended the weapon as a joke. I do think that the combination of gems and different scaling mechanics make some weapons hard to balance for all levels. At level 100-110, the kirk is surely better. But how do things compare at level 200? What level does FROM have in mind when balancing?

Perhaps this is more of a pve weapon, for certain situations. In competitive pvp at 100-110 it's usefulness unfortunately might be limited to exploiting the 2H MHA's with flats.

In any case, let's hope FROM will look at scaling, gems and multipliers in the expansion or in a patch. Seems they didn't really think the numbers through too much (LHB as a prime example), or they just made things too complicated for themselves.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby M3mnoch_1987 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:23 am

Astrichthyes wrote:So, after fooling around a bit in hizzngr3 today, I'd like to discuss the Logwheel and how it compares to the other strength weapon it's often paired with: the Kirkhammer. Both are admittedly good in their own respects, but what makes the Logwheel pale in comparison to the Sword in the Stone in most regards?


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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:27 am

Astri, where are you getting those AR multipliers? Here are the Kirk multipliers I'm familiar with:

UTF
R1 — 0.7
BS R1 — 0.67
QS — 0.67
Run R1 — 0.8
R2 — 1.0
Charged R2 — 1.2
BS R2 — 0.85
Run R2 — 0.95
Jump — 1.2
TF Attack — 1.05

TF
R1 — 1.0
BS R1 — 0.45
QS — 0.85
Run R1 — 0.55
R2 — 1.25
Charge R2 — 2.3
BS R2 — 1.0
Run R2 — 1.05
Jump — 1.2
L2 — 1.15
TF Attack — 1.05
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:15 am

Juli wrote:Astri, where are you getting those AR multipliers? Here are the Kirk multipliers I'm familiar with:

UTF
R1 — 0.7
BS R1 — 0.67
QS — 0.67
Run R1 — 0.8
R2 — 1.0
Charged R2 — 1.2
BS R2 — 0.85
Run R2 — 0.95
Jump — 1.2
TF Attack — 1.05

TF
R1 — 1.0
BS R1 — 0.45
QS — 0.85
Run R1 — 0.55
R2 — 1.25
Charge R2 — 2.3
BS R2 — 1.0
Run R2 — 1.05
Jump — 1.2
L2 — 1.15
TF Attack — 1.05

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://bloo ... wToKFXEHyQ

The wiki is, of course, inaccurate. Pisses me off, really. I have still been getting incredibly high numbers with the Kirk compared to the wheel and the 1h sword was quite literally hitting about as hard as the 1h wheel. To do so, the multiplier for the sword would have to be quite high. Testing was done in random pvp. I'd be happy to revise the calcs and will do so later, as I have work for most of the day. Shouldn't take long once I do.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:34 am

I think a big part of the difference here is that the untransformed wheel is also a one-handed weapon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Logarius' Wheel get hyperarmor on its attacks even in the one-handed mode? That's pretty good for something that still allows for an off-hand weapon like a gun, flamesprayer, or shield.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:28 pm

Probably not "correct" to share like this, will remove link asap if needed. I do not own the images.

Edit: @Juli, gotcha.
Last edited by phero on Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:08 pm

It's fine to post information contained within the guide, but do not post scans or verbatim copies of its text. Posting the multipliers is fine, but do not post images of the tables from the guide.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:38 pm

Tsmp wrote:I think a big part of the difference here is that the untransformed wheel is also a one-handed weapon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Logarius' Wheel get hyperarmor on its attacks even in the one-handed mode? That's pretty good for something that still allows for an off-hand weapon like a gun, flamesprayer, or shield.

The Logwheel does have some hyperarmor in its UTF, but the window is small. It becomes much wider in the TF state, in my experience.
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Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:00 pm

Here are the corrected calcs using the multipliers that Juli has so generously provided:

Logwheel+10 with three 32.6% blunt gems
902P+51A

Kirkhammer+10 with three 27.2% physical gems
816P

Effective AR's:

Logwheel at 902P+51A

UTF
R1 = 1.00(902P+51A) = 902P+51A
QS R1 = 0.82(902P+51A) = 739P+41A
run R1 = 1.08(902P+51A) = 974P+55A
R2 = 1.18(902P+51A) = 1064P+60A
Charged R2 = 1.63(902P+51A) = 1470P+83A
Run R2 = R2 = 1064P+60A
Leaping R2 = 1.33(902P+51A) = 1199P+67A
TF Attack = 0.92(902P+51A) = 829P+46A

TF, I won't even touch because we aren't 100% sure that my estimated AR's are accurate. Now, let's look at the Kirk:

Kirkhammer at 816P

UTF
R1 = 0.70(816P) = 571P
QS R1 = 0.67(816P) = 546P
Run R1 = 0.8(816P) = 652P
R2 = 1.0(816P) = 816P
Charged R2 = 1.2(816P) = 979P
Run R2 = 0.95(816P) = 775P
Leap R2 = Charged R2 = 979P
TF attack = 1.50(816P) = 856P

TF
R1 = 1.0(816P) = 816P
QS R1 = 0.85(816P) = 693P
Run R1 = 0.55(816P) = 448P
R2 = 1.25(816P)= 1020P
Charged R2 = 2.3(816P) = 1876P
Run R2 = 1.05(816P) = 856P
Leap R2 = 1.2(816P) = 979P
L2 = 1.15(816P) = 938P
TF attack = 1.05(816P) = 856P

So, the attack these weapons use most in combat are the QS r1's, running attacks, leap attacks, and charged R2's. Respectively, in a TF Kirk vs UTF Log comparison, we're looking at:

R1: 902P+51A vs 816P
QS R1: 739P+41A vs 693P
Run R1: 974P+55A vs 448P
Charged R2: 1470P+83A vs 1876P
Run R2 = 1064P+60A vs 856P
Leap R2 = 1199P+67A vs 979P

The plain-phys-gem TF Kirk should only outdamage an all-blunt-gem Logwheel with the charged R2. That charged R2 is much weaker than the Kirk's and has no follow-up attack, but it should hit quite hard. I honestly cannot say why the Kirk is outdamaging my wheel. Could it be that most of my hits with the Kirk are DH/CH and the Wheel just isn't scoring them as often, lending to the idea that the output is lower?

I'm quite encouraged to test the actual output each weapon will have against a naked runeless character in pvp. M3m, I may take you up on your offer to test if you are still willing. All I need to do is find my final 2 radial blunt gems, which may take a while.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby M3mnoch_1987 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:37 am

Astrichthyes wrote: M3m, I may take you up on your offer to test if you are still willing. All I need to do is find my final 2 radial blunt gems, which may take a while.


No problem at all matey I just need to get my PS4 back. Its been slowely dying since December and now totally wont read any discs. I bought it second hand off of a friend of a friend who needed a quick sale but he is still paying it off on finance so it has gone back to the shop to be repaired / replaced. I have my characters on a memory pen (I was piggy backing off of his PS+ account as he bought a years sub so I thought it pointless for me to buy one on top of that). Im really hoping I don't have any issues with my save file (it will be the same account that they are being downloaded to but I different PS probably) like I have done with DeS previously. Lost 12 DeS toons and 30 each on DkS and DkS2.... TWICE!
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:05 am

M3mnoch_1987 wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote: M3m, I may take you up on your offer to test if you are still willing. All I need to do is find my final 2 radial blunt gems, which may take a while.


No problem at all matey I just need to get my PS4 back. Its been slowely dying since December and now totally wont read any discs. I bought it second hand off of a friend of a friend who needed a quick sale but he is still paying it off on finance so it has gone back to the shop to be repaired / replaced. I have my characters on a memory pen (I was piggy backing off of his PS+ account as he bought a years sub so I thought it pointless for me to buy one on top of that). Im really hoping I don't have any issues with my save file (it will be the same account that they are being downloaded to but I different PS probably) like I have done with DeS previously. Lost 12 DeS toons and 30 each on DkS and DkS2.... TWICE!

That was my situation back in July with my ps3. Lost hundreds of hours on DeS alone. 12 characters, fully decked out. Also lost my Tomb Raider save that was about 2/3rds in, my DkS saves, DkS2, Dead Space, the works. Turns out my hard drive was corrupted and the processor was failing. Fixed the HDD, but it still freezes every time my fiancee plays Skyrim
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:21 am

I could also help with testing if needed, though I won't be online until the 25th.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:58 pm

phero wrote:I could also help with testing if needed, though I won't be online until the 25th.

If you're available before I can test with m3m, that's fine. I'm not having any luck finding blunt gems in ag77rinb, so I don't know when I'll be able to test the fully decked out blunt wheel.

Edit: I've fought the MW's in ag77rinb at least 50 times and obtained only 1 blunt gem. -8.5%ATK. It's beyond frustrating to even try for these gems with them being that rare and having such an abominable curse floating around that loves to show up at the worst of times. I'm almost ready to give up and farm for blunt gems from the Undead Giants, even though I absolutely hate them because of the OHKO's on every single DH attack.
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Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:24 pm

I'm still searching for those perfect blunt gems, but the RNG is not on my side. I decided to do a little damage testing with the gems I have. I went into NG++ recently, so my damage values may not match up, but the gemless tests should act as a control. I'll be comparing the standard TF Kirkhammer to the Blunt Logwheel.

Stats: 50s, 13d, 10a

No-gem testing:

Logwheel+10
AR: 387P+51A
DMG:
320UTF
324TF

Kirkhammer+10
AR: 397P
DMG:
320TF

*Note that the 51ArcAR compensates for the 10 PhysAR advantage the Kirk has over the LW here.

With gems:

Logwheel+10 with 2x +31.5%blunt and 1x +32.6%blunt
AR: 887P+51A
DMG:
808UTF
686TF

Kirkhammer+10 with 3x +27.3% phys
AR: 816P
DMG:
735TF

Since you would gain 15AR from perfect blunt gems and the damage efficiency ratio of the Logwheel's UTF r1 is 1.0, the damage would be 823, give or take a point. I'm not done yet, though.

Kirkhammer+10 with +31.5%blunt, +32.6%blunt, +27.2%phys
AR: 880P (only 7 less than my blunt wheel)
DMG:
792TF

Curiously enough, the Kirk has a lower damage efficiency ratio than the Wheel (0.89 vs 1.0). This suggests that the weapon retains less damage per AR because the moveset multiplier for the hammer is not 1.0 per TF r1. The LW could have higher efficiency because the multiplier for the UTF r1 is greater than 1. Another possibility as to why the LW has higher damage efficiency is because the defense value used to calculate damage may actually be the arcane def alone rather than both arcane and physdef. If this is the case, the LW is hitting a considerably lower stat without significant split-damage reductions, therefore netting a higher overall output per AR. This may not be the case in pvp, however, which is why i'll be testing it ASAP. If the LW takes a reduction from the arcane side that is greater than the actual AR of the weapon, it could actually detract from the physical side as well and result in abnormally low damage values. It would explain why I've never been able to hit very hard with it in pvp barring the flat gem setup and the anomalous high values you can get when you hit a vileblood with a heavy attack.
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Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby phero » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:19 pm

I'm available for damage tests, let me know if you still need anyone.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:27 pm

phero wrote:I'm available for damage tests, let me know if you still need anyone.

I had planned on testing with M3m, but if he is unavailable this evening, i'd be glad to take you up on that offer. I'd like to test two different gem setups for damage against a SL 100 character without armor and one with maximum blunt def armor (top hat, executioner chest, gasciogne gloves, executioner boots). Runes are not necessary, although it would be nice to see the difference in damage comparing vileblood vs non-VB. I'll be getting approximate damage efficiency on the physical side as well as some general damage highs and lows.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:38 pm

Arcane DR rune would be great for testing. You could figure out what % of damage is blunt vs. what % of damage is arcane in the TF mode by testing damage vs. a naked opponent with no runes, then testing vs. a naked opponent with 10% arcane damage reduction. Multiply the difference by 10 and that's how much of the damage is arcane.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:50 pm

Juli wrote:Arcane DR rune would be great for testing. You could figure out what % of damage is blunt vs. what % of damage is arcane in the TF mode by testing damage vs. a naked opponent with no runes, then testing vs. a naked opponent with 10% arcane damage reduction. Multiply the difference by 10 and that's how much of the damage is arcane.

The only reason i'm not sure this would work is because that damage reduction is unlikely to be a perfect 10%. It'd more likely be a little more because defs seem to have a flat reduction on top of the percentage. It's definitely worth looking at, however. I'll test it and make sure to share all of my data with my analysis. Thanks for the tip. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Juli » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:44 am

Damage reduction is a straight %. Every 10 points of damage reduction = 1% damage reduced. Defenses are close to a flat reduction, but players only have physical defense AFAIK. Maybe they have other defenses, but if they do it's a hidden stat. In any case, I doubt armor/runes affect defenses at all.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:25 am

Juli wrote:Damage reduction is a straight %. Every 10 points of damage reduction = 1% damage reduced. Defenses are close to a flat reduction, but players only have physical defense AFAIK. Maybe they have other defenses, but if they do it's a hidden stat. In any case, I doubt armor/runes affect defenses at all.

I'll give it a shot and see what happens. I highly doubt that they would give players 0 in elemdefs without armor, but you never know. It might be worth testing just to see. If players have no innate elemdefs, it could make the Logwheel deal much higher damage than it should when testing against a naked player, which makes the damage values very misleading and much higher than they should be. I'll be testing this with an arcane-gem'd weapon and record my results.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:15 pm

Alright, thanks to phero, I got some pvp testing done with the Logwheel. I'll be honest, i'm not happy with the results. All tests were performed against a naked SL110 character with 224 natural physdef.

Tests for the 50/10 no-rune group:

Hunter axe+10 (arcane gem)
AR: 196+77ArcAR = 273ArcAR
Dmg:
130 UTF R1
*Dmg per AR: 0.418628901

LW+10 with 3x 27.2% tempering gems
AR: 796P+51A
Dmg:
617 UTF R1
450 TF R1
573 TF R2

LW+10 with 2x 31.5% blunt gems and 1x 32.6% blunt
AR: 887P+51A
Dmg:
707 UTF R1
509 TF R1
647 TF R2

Same setups vs naked SL110 with 7% arcane lake rune:

Hunter's axe
273ArcAR
Dmg: 122 UTF R1

Tempering LW
796P+51A
616 UTF R1
446 TF R1
568 TF R2

Blunt LW
887P+51A
707 UTF R1
505 TF R1
642 TF R2

I did tests with a flat gem setup, but they are not my primary concern at the moment. What does concern me is the Arcane and Nourishing setups. Here is my testing to find approximate efficiency of the arcane side of the wheel. Tests were performed under the same conditions as before, but with a 30/25 setup instead of the 50/10.

No-rune 30/25 group:

LW+10 with physical gems
453P+64A
310 UTF R1
294 TF R1
391 TF R2

LW+10 with nourishing gems
454P+64A
319 UTF R1
440 TF R1
568 TF R2

7% arcane lake 30/25 group:

LW+10 with physical gems
453P+64A
309 UTF R1
286 TF R1
381 TF R2

LW+10 with nourishing gems
454P+107A
318 UTF R1
422 TF R1
545 TF R2

Now, looking at the damage efficiencies, I get the following for the no-rune group:

HA = 130/273 = 0.4761904762
LW tempering to blunt efficiency for 50/10 setup = (707-617)/(887-796) = 0.989010989
LW arcane efficiency for the 30/25 setup in the TF state = (319-310)/(107-64) = 0.2093023256

The physical efficiency on this weapon is excellent. Almost a 1:1 for AR increases, as was seen in my pve testing. On the other hand, arcane is looking absolutely terrible. It seems the game is treating arcane AR's as if they are about half of what they really are and making further reductions from there. Given the efficiency of the ArcAR on the axe, I can confidently say that the damage you gain from that 51A on the LW is less than 21. In fact, it's probably less than 12. Looking at the reductions from the Arcane Lake 7% rune, we can approximate effective AR.

30/25 physical setup lost 1 damage in the UTF state from the rune and 8 damage in the TF state on the r1. That's a 6% loss in arcane damage. 30/25 nourishing setup, by comparison, lost 18 damage. if 18 damage is 6% of total damage, then we're looking at 300 damage originally. Now, if arcane is as bad as it seems, that 300 damage is about 600AR, which seems way out of line. It's all very confusing, but it doesn't seem like arcane is even remotely effective or efficient compared to physical equivalents. I don't even see a 50 arcane build with 4 revs doing an incredible amount of damage compared to the physical setup. And this is all without armor and runes! Given the fact that arcane reduction is so out-of-whack, i'd say that the only reason the hunter's tools are as bad as they are is because they have halved effective AR from the get-go and are further mitigated by runes and armor.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Tsmp » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:52 pm

If arcane damage has half effectiveness against players, that would probably explain why A Call Beyond is so boss in pve but practically useless in pvp.

You think it extends to bolt and fire as well?
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Magic System Guide:
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Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
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Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
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