Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Discuss the multiple items and magic consuming techniques of Yharnam

Logwheel Testing: Mystery Solved?

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:51 pm

The full guide on the Wheel can be found here: http://fextralife.com/forums/t47964/log ... eel-guide/


What follows is all of my research and speculation over months of preparation and testing on this enigmatic weapon.

Everything I've learned about the Logarius Wheel:

-The UTF state of the weapon is primarily physical. It's what you see in the weapon status menu.
-The TF state of the weapon still has good scaling on the physical side, but the arcane side of things gets a huge multiplier (about 4-5, if my calculations are correct)
-Each buff adds 10% of your ARC AR back on to the weapon for a maximum multiplier of 1.4 at the cost of 0.1%hp/0.1sec per buff level. It shows a tiny AR increase, but that's based on your UTF ArcAR, which gets a massive hidden multiplier of about 4-5.
-Buffs will have 0 hp drain if 0.1% of your max hp is less than 1. This means the first buff in a cursed dungeon may be completely free if your max hp is below a certain point (999hp for the first buff, for ex)
-The second buff seems to be bugged, as it decreases AR in the status window by 1 rather than increase it, but damage still increases as it should.
-The multi-hit attacks on this weapon are great for building up the beasthood meter if you use a beast blood pellet, but it can also build up rapid poison very quickly for some incredible damage against bosses and decent damage in pvp.
-Due to the dual-nature of this weapon, it scales very well with Nourishing blood gems for PvE, but suffers from split-damage syndrome in pvp.
-Flat Arcane gems do not give as much of a damage increase as ATK or phys gems on normal hits, but the multi-hit attacks multiply the AR increase to 3x's what you get on almost any other weapon, making them much better for burst damage. At 30/25 with 3 of them, i'm hitting 1k-1.3k per dash r1 and r2 against most pve enemies and about 500 per hit in pvp. At 50/10 with 3 of them, I hit about 800-1k per hit average and as high as 1400 on direct hits against bosses such as the Watchers.
-All attacks done by this weapon are blunt except for visceral attacks, so Adept blood gems that boost blunt AR are a huge advantage this weapon has over every other strength weapon, including the famous Kirkhammer and equally infamous Holy Blade. At 50/10, you can get over 950AR. The Kirkhammer gets up to 816AR at 50s/13d without giving up a lot of damage on a particular damage type or specific attacks. Ludwig's is in the same boat. Tonitrus, while blunt as well, benefits much more from Nourishing gems because the bolt self-buff is multiplied with the gems.
-The only attacks that i've found to not have recoil against Lead Elixir are the UTF r2 and the TF-to-UTF transformation attack.
-The arcane blast AoE transformation attack is NOT purely arcane, contrary to popular belief.

UTF AR's:
200+X Phys (X = 115 at 25s, 125 at 30s, 187 at 50s, and 219 at 99s)
50+Y Arc (Y = 1 at 10a, 14 at 25a, 25 at 50a, and 30 at 99a)

Approximate TF AR's:
140+A Phys (A = 77 at 25s, 131 at 50s, 154 at 99s)
200+B Arc (B = 7 at 10a, 64 at 25a, 108 at 50a, and 127 at 99a)


Useful AR-gem multipliers:
3x 23.6% Nourishing = 1.888 for all AR's
3x 27.2% Tempering/Arcane = 2.058 for all PhysAR
3x 32.6% Blunt = 2.331 for BluntAR

While my approximate TF AR's don't match up perfectly with my calculations below, they should be relatively close to the real values. I don't think the scaling changes either, just the base damages. That means STR is still S scaling and ARC is still C scaling. Notice how my calculations don't show a perfect base damage switch. This leaves the weapon with a lot of potential to grow beyond what would otherwise be a very low damage ceiling. Since this is not the case, the TF state will continue to see good returns from both ARC and STR, allowing both stats to build on each other. The Tonitrus essentially does the same thing, but to a lesser degree that requires it to use its buff.

Here is my damage vs NG+ CY axeman at 50/10 with 3 27.2% phys gems:
AR: 796P+51A
DMG:
726UTF
628TF

Damage gains are still 1:1 on the physical side for the UTF state, so you can expect the damage to be 104-107 damage higher per hit with 3 blunt gems over the 27.2's. That equates to about 830 damage per UTF hit. PvP damage will, of course, be lower, but I think this weapon will still hit about 450-600 on regular hits
Last edited by Astrichthyes on Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 23 times in total.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Some Level 125’s to kick off discussion

Postby Juli » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:58 pm

The scaling listed on Logwheel's stat sheet definitely does not explain the damage boost Astrichthyes is getting from Arcane on its own. For a scaling boost to give that much damage on something with 50 base AR, it would need to be 2.24. For comparison, the highest scaling that exists in the game is Evelyn's 1.35 Bloodtinge scaling, and Logwheel's actual Arcane scaling multiplier is 0.56.

What's interesting here is that 2.24 is exactly four times 0.56. Possibly when two-handed, the Logarius Wheel has a 4.0x arcane damage multiplier. Every attack in the game has a damage multiplier (it's why heavy attacks deal more damage than light attacks), though I've never known of a damage multiplier specific to a single damage type for a weapon. Still, if it has a really high arcane multiplier and a low physical damage multiplier to compensate, that explains why the 2H damage dropped when you transformed it on a STR build, instead of increasing like most weapons would.

Based on what I've seen, I'd hypothesize that when you transform it, it gets 4x arcane damage and 1/4x physical damage, based on the fact that untransformed its physical AR is 4x its Arcane AR, which would mean that it flips evenly when transformed.

Just a guess. I'll leave the actual testing to the people who own the game :P
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Re: Some Level 125’s to kick off discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:58 pm

Juli wrote:Ludwig's is actually stronger at lower levels because of how diminishing returns work this time around. Going from 10 to 25 gives you a little more than double the amount of scaling per point than going from 25 to 50. So hitting 25/25 for a quality build is better than 40/10 or 10/40 in a STR or SKL build, for the same stat cost. Getting another 10 points is more beneficial for a single-scaling build at this point than for a quality build. 50/10 will be happier vs. 30/30 than a 40/10 will be vs. 25/25.

Anyways, for 50 vit, 40 end, minimum requirements, and 50 in a single scaling stat, 120 or 125 is perfect. 50/40/50/13/6/10 for a STR build (Cannon and Logwheel minimum reqs) is 119. 50/40/11/50/12/7 for a SKL build (Chikage minimum reqs for UTF mode) is 120. 50/40/20/12/5/50 (Logwheel minimum reqs for TF mode) is 127. And if, for some reason, you want to make a non-hybrid Bloodtinge build, you can go 50/40/11/14/50/7 at 123.

At this level it's also reasonable to take some points out of Endurance and put it into a second stat. E.G. 50/27/50/13/5/25 BL 120 STR/ARC. 50/27/11/50/25/7 BL 120 SKL/BLT. 50/34/30/25/25/6 Q/BLT.

Also worth noting is that the game actually does have an equip burden system, it's just completely hidden. Because FROM. It works like in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, where it's tiered, rather than Dark Souls 2's linear scaling system. Max equip burden is affected by your Vitality this time around, and going up a tier slows stamina regeneration.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... s_stamina/

The way stamina works in this game is a little different from the previous games because dodging and small weapon attacks take hardly any stamina. In addition, you can use runes for extra stamina, which is the reason many players give for a lower sl. At 15e with a 10% stamina rune, I can swing my 2h holy blade 4x's with mashing, which isn't bad for a heavy weapon. Personally, I think the rune argument is invalid because if a pure build needs such runes for adequate stamina, it leaves hybrids in the dust. SL 125 does feel a little too high IMHO, but 100 feels too low. SL 110 seems to be the best overall SL because it's not so low that a hybrid cannot work, nor is it high enough for a hybrid to become overwhelmingly powerful (such as 50/50 Chikage). That's just my reasoning.

I noticed a stamina regen speed drop over the course of the game on my first playthrough, but I had no idea what caused it. Thanks for the info.

I'm actually making a new character to test how hard Logwheel will hit at 25arc with gems (going for a radial ATK+%, a triangular ARC+72, and hopefully a waning ARC+72 or ARC+%). I have a feeling I'll be hitting really hard compared to my pure str character (possibly at game-breaking levels since my 50/10 was hitting about 600-800 per swing in 2h with so-so gems). Currently sl 60, heading through Cainhurst for bloodstone chunks and my soon-to-be-acquired wheel.

Also wanted to say that my testing a few posts back showed 1AR increases per point despite my 3-4 damage per point increases and that the actual damage increases were possibly higher due to the multi-hit nature of the weapon in 2h. The actual damage increases may have been as high as 5 or 6 with the multi-hit taken into account.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Some Level 125’s to kick off discussion

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:37 am

I did some more testing with Logwheel, but I seem to have misplaced my data sheet. The general results were quite intriguing. In increasing my str from 20-25, I gained about 6-8ar per point with no gems. Going from 1h to 2h, I noticed the actual damage increases were almost halved, which suggests that juli is correct in thinking that the scaling may flip. That said, I did a rough estimation on what my damage will look like with 3 +72.5Arc gems: 1100-1200 per regular r1 without buffs (spinning wheel). This is based on the general damage trend that was seen in my testing vs the ng yarnham axeman and does not take the multi-hit into account.

The fact that visceral attacks scale off of SKL and SL is rather upsetting because it sets dex up to have a huge advantage over other builds. The fact that they also scale with physical gems is also upsetting because arcane is getting no love here.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:48 pm

Thanks for separating this from the other thread, Juli. I'm on the hunt for an uncanny Logwheel now, so I'm plowing through the chalice dungeons to find one. I have a triangular +23arc bloodgem that I'll be testing as soon as I can to answer your question about whether +flats get the 4x's multiplier. What I do remember from my data that you'll find most intriguing is that the physical scaling in 2h seems to be reduced by a little less than half. Your hypothesis that the modifier may switch to .56 on the physical side seems correct. I'll have some numbers ready to compare the dmg increases in going from 20 to 25 for both physical and arcane in both stances soon, but first, I need to grab some BoL's for defiled chalice and all subsequent chalices needed to get my uncanny wheel

On a side note, I tested augur of ebrietas and executioners gloves at 20arc... 100 damage per shot. With Evelyn dealing 200-300 damage per shot, arcane doesn't seem at all worth using besides wheel and maybe elemental Ludwig.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Tsmp » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:51 pm

That reminds me, I think the Tonitrus has a similar thing going on with its self-buff. When I was using it on an arcane build, the damage it did while buffed was absolutely preposterous, way more than it ought to have been with that D scaling and low base damage. Either the buff itself scales with arcane, or buffing it throws on a temporary modifier of gigantic proportions.

According to the guidebook, the Chikage only deals physical damage and scales with skill in its normal mode. No blood damage, no bloodtinge scaling, only physical and skill. When transformed, it deals only blood damage and scales only with bloodtinge. So there is precedent for this sort of nonsense. (assuming the guidebook isn't just wrong)

Hah, and here I thought I was being so smart when I used a Beast Blood Pellet with a transformed Logarius' Wheel. Sure, the meter filled almost instantly, but beasthood only boosts physical damage. :(
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Magic System Guide:
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Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
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Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Juli » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:54 pm

Actually, I wasn't wondering about the +flat damage's effect on Logwheel's transform multiplier. I'd be very surprised if it did not multiply the AR from +flat damage gems. I was wondering about the weapon's basic scaling that's listed on its stats page. I.E. if you have 25 Arcane on Logwheel, you will gain 28% of its base arcane attack rating as bonus attack rating. If you put a +50 gem on that, you you get only another +50 damage? Or would it multiply with scaling, giving you +64 (50*1.28) damage? I'm also curious if +% damage multiplies damage from +flat damage bloodgems. I assume they do, but it'd be nice to know for sure.

The 4x multiplier was based on the assumption that the enemy had 0 (or close to 0) Arcane Damage Reduction, AND that you only hit 1 time with the wheel. If the wheel hits multiple times (how many?) or the enemy has significant Arcane Damage Reduction, then my guess would be completely wrong. Your idea that the scaling flips might be more plausible. If those damage numbers are from the wheel hitting twice, then that means its AR doubled, rather than quadrupled. And you said when transformed, increasing your STR increased the damage by roughly half as much as listed on the stat sheet*? Well, the Arcane scaling on Logwheel is almost exactly half of the STR scaling.

Still, this assumes the Yharnam axeman you're testing on has close to 0 defense vs. Arcane.

*Did you test how much STR boosted its damage when untransformed? It would be better to compare how much STR affected its damage TF vs. UTF rather than just looking at TF damage vs. stat sheet. It's possible the Yharnam axeman has enough blunt defense that a noticeable part of that 50% damage reduction came from his defense, rather than a change to scaling.

Try using this for finding the U.Logwheel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... g&sle=true
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:40 pm

I found part of my data sheet, so here it is:

Logwheel+10 without gems (tested vs brick-fists in central yarnham past shortcut to left of lamp)

20s/15a
AR: 277P+56A
Dmg:
265UTF (dh, estimated 215 normal hit)
281TF

25s/15a
AR: 309P+56A
Dmg:
253UTF
300TF

AR gain from str was 32. UTF damage increased by 38 ( give or take 1 point), but TF damage only increased by 19. I'll post numbers for arcane at 20A and then at 25A to see how the damage increases compare.

Some more interesting data:

20s/15a with +18% physical gem
AR: 326P+56A
Dmg:
270UTF
311TF

20s/15a with +18% arcane gem
AR: 277P+66A
Dmg:
225UTF
308TF

What strikes me about this data is that the 2h damage is so close while arc has 5 less points invested. I'd also like to add that these were only single strikes. The multi hit is 2 additional strikes that deal a small amount of damage each (getting about 5% each, but I'll record the actual numbers tonight if I can.
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Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:56 am

As soon as I get some gems, I'll do some testing as well on a build that might be Wheely good. Then I can contribute on whatever is the Deal with the Wheel.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:23 pm

Vumsy wrote:As soon as I get some gems, I'll do some testing as well on a build that might be Wheely good. Then I can contribute on whatever is the Deal with the Wheel.

Glad to have you. Let's get the ball - I mean "wheel" - rolling. I'll be posting my new data from last night after I get off from work. What I can't seem to find is where to farm high quality +ATK% gems. My hunch on the +flat is that, if From did their math right, the additional +flat AR will be added after the TF multiplier takes effect instead of being multiplied as base AR. We'll see what happens.

Also, Juli, + flat gems don't seem to be affected by % boosts from other gems. I had a +% +flat fire gem and the % did not affect the flat increase
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:29 pm

"Arcane damage" is specified. If it increases anything it would be flat arcane damage. Brainsuckers in chalice dungeons drop flat arcane gems (no need for top tier stuff in case of being shit).

I can deduce a few hypothesises from how arcane gems might affect the transformed boost.

Percent bonus arc dmg gems are probably unnaffected. Because if you have 81% bonus arcane dmg in gems further increased by x1.4... It'd be all over forums and reddit.
"logwheel to much strengt dmg!!! i get 1-shot QQ"
"It's arcane damage dumb-ass."
"still to OP!!1 QQ"
"Yes... QQ"

However flat remains somewhat untested and it can work two ways.
1. It counts as a different source of arcane damage and is unaffected by the boost.
2. It's arcane damage, and enjoys the full benefit of the boost.

Basically if completely unaffected by gems, pumping Str is the most solid option. Despite shitty attack modifiers, 1 handed is superior. S scaling, high base damage, decent moveset, no hp drain.
However depending on it's interaction with flat gems, it becomes more of a Tonitrus weapon, a hybrid. Flat arcane gems yields some percentage phys dmg and the flat arcane doesn't scale with stats.
I can see a 30~50str/25arc being the ideal. Pump some points into one, settle for soft cap in the other.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:39 pm

Vumsy wrote:...
However flat remains somewhat untested and it can work two ways.
1. It counts as a different source of arcane damage and is unaffected by the boost.
2. It's arcane damage, and enjoys the full benefit of the boost.


Right, if From did their math right, your 1st hypothesis will ring true. If they fudged it, we may be looking at numbers over 2k damage per regular hit in the TF state, which will be promptly patched if word gets out.

Vumsy wrote:Percent bonus arc dmg gems are probably unnaffected. Because if you have 81% bonus arcane dmg in gems further increased by x1.4... It'd be all over forums and reddit.
"logwheel to much strengt dmg!!! i get 1-shot QQ"
"It's arcane damage dumb-ass."
"still to OP!!1 QQ"
"Yes... QQ"

This is not necessarily true. The fact is, most players haven't even tried Logwheel with arcane investment because the S in str is so attractive while the C in arcane is rather misleading. In the TF state, that C in scaling essentially turns into S scaling while str scaling drops to about half of what it is in the UTF state. This means +1AR in arcane may turn into anywhere from 2-6 damage in the TF state, depending on how the game handles it with the multi-hits, the moveset damage modifiers, and counterhit boosts.

Look at my previous testing:

20s/15a
AR: 277P+56A
Dmg:
265UTF (dh, estimated 215 normal hit)
281TF

20s/15a with +18% arcane gem
AR: 277P+66A
Dmg:
225UTF
308TF

As you can see, the 18% gem granted me a meager 10AR in Arc, yet my TF damage increased from 281 to 308 (27 damage increase). The multiplier is still in effect, but it doesn't seem quite as good as the actual scaling from 20 to 25. This isn't a very high quality gem either and is only half as good as a +18%ATK gem overall (which is still low-grade compared to what you can farm in the chalices against bosses)

Vumsy wrote:Basically if completely unaffected by gems, pumping Str is the most solid option. Despite shitty attack modifiers, 1 handed is superior. S scaling, high base damage, decent moveset, no hp drain.
I can see a 30~50str/25arc being the ideal. Pump some points into one, settle for soft cap in the other.


Pumping str isn't a bad option, especially past 25s/25a. My 50/10 hit pretty hard with all physical gems and did alright in its TF state. What I'm exploring is whether 25-30s/25a has a distinct advantage over a 50s/10a build. Since I have both, I can do a direct comparison of damage output in both stances. My hunch is that the arcane hybrid will be a much better TF user, but still a good UTF user, and will have some more stats to throw around. The pure str version will have reliably high UTF damage and decent TF damage, but has a tighter stat restriction and may have lower overall output.

Here is the rest of my data sheet:

Logwheel+10, no gems, vs brick-fists past Gilbert's window with normal r1's

25s/20a
AR: 309P+60A
DMG:
255UTF
320TF

25S/21A
AR: 309P+61A
DMG:
255UTF
325TF

25S/22A
AR: 309P+62A
DMG:
256UTF
329TF

25S/23A
AR: 309P+63A
DMG:
256UTF
334TF

25S/24A
AR: 309P+64A
DMG:
257UTF
338TF

25S/25A
AR: 309P+64A
DMG:
257UTF
343TF

26S/25A
AR: 313P+64A
DMG:
260UTF
345TF

25S/26A
AR: 309P+64A
DMG:
257UTF
345TF

As you can see, past 25/25, strength seems to scale better than arcane in the long run. What my testing also told us is that the scaling either switches entirely (S/C to C/S) or aforementioned multipliers are added in transforming the weapon (ex. 4x's arcane, 1/2 physical) and any partial AR that is hidden can be made into whole AR with said multipliers. It may also suggest an even greater multiplier (5-6x's arcane) is applied in the TF state since my damage increases were 4-5 per stat point in ARC up to 25A.

My final build will probably look like this:

50v, 27e, 30s, 13d, 5b, 25a
Logwheel+10 + Kirk/Holy Blade+10 (may do elemental damage on LHB or buff Kirk with EPS aka sticky white stuff)
Blunderbuss/Pistol + Cannon

I'm unsure about runes, but i'm really liking the Oedon Writhe and Blood Rapture combo. A stamina rune probably won't be necessary, so I may run an HP rune

The armor I've been using for PvE is Tomb Prospector hood and boots, executioner's robes, and Gasciogne's gloves. The armor I suspect will be most used is Cainhurst to mitigate the damage of all the Skilltinge builds running around (Evelyn/Repeater spammers)

I'll be testing a +flat arcane gem as soon as I get an uncanny Logwheel and upgrade it to at least +9
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Tsmp » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:49 pm

Have you tried seeing if the TF's third-stage self buff puts the arcane damage high enough to outpace the strength scaling UTF?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:53 pm

Tsmp wrote:Have you tried seeing if the TF's third-stage self buff puts the arcane damage high enough to outpace the strength scaling UTF?

No, I haven't even done any buff calculations. I'm primarily interested in raw damage because I don't personally use the buffs. I can still test the significance of the buff and compare it to a pure str.

Speaking of the buff, I was reading this page and it had me confused
http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Logarius%27+Wheel
If you read the details on the buff, it says the first L2 does not deplete hp, yet I am getting a consistent drain at about 10hp per second. Is the wiki page wrong or am I just misunderstanding it?
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Juli » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:08 am

Vumsy wrote:"Arcane damage" is specified. If it increases anything it would be flat arcane damage. Brainsuckers in chalice dungeons drop flat arcane gems (no need for top tier stuff in case of being shit).

I can deduce a few hypothesises from how arcane gems might affect the transformed boost.

Percent bonus arc dmg gems are probably unnaffected. Because if you have 81% bonus arcane dmg in gems further increased by x1.4... It'd be all over forums and reddit.

Pretty sure +%arcane gems wouldn't be worth using over +flat arcane gems, regardless of if they get multiplied by the 1.4x multiplier or not? Like, at 99 Arcane, Logwheel has 50+28 arcane damage. Top-tier +%damage gives 28.1%. 28.1% of 78 is +22. Meanwhile, a top-tier +flat damage will give something like +90 arcane damage.

EDIT: Wiki page is wrong. Guide lists the health drain numbers. It's 1% of HP per second per buff level. So if you rev it four times, you're losing 4% health per second.

In the damage numbers you listed for TF, was the Wheel hitting multiple times, or just once?
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:56 am

Juli wrote:Pretty sure +%arcane gems wouldn't be worth using over +flat arcane gems, regardless of if they get multiplied by the 1.4x multiplier or not? Like, at 99 Arcane, Logwheel has 50+28 arcane damage. Top-tier +%damage gives 28.1%. 28.1% of 78 is +22. Meanwhile, a top-tier +flat damage will give something like +90 arcane damage.

EDIT: Wiki page is wrong. Guide lists the health drain numbers. It's 1% of HP per second per buff level. So if you rev it four times, you're losing 4% health per second.

In the damage numbers you listed for TF, was the Wheel hitting multiple times, or just once?

I think the arcane scaling for the wheel actually shifts so that instead of multiplying, you have hidden scaling and base dmg ex. C/S at 50P+200A). This would explain why my dmg increased by 4-5 with 1AR or less per point and why the 18% gem did not increase my dmg by 40-50 for the 10AR I gained. we'll have to see what the +flat gem yields in terms of damage before we can judge which will be best. If the flat gem does not yield a massive damage increase, then I suspect the % gems stacked will be the best. I'll be testing the damage and AR increases tomorrow for my 18% arc gem to see how my 25A compares to my initial test with it. Then, I'll continue my search for that ULW.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:02 am

My bad Juli, forgot how shit the base arcane damage is.

With only 50 base, flat is indeed the way to go. You get a 27~28%ish phys dmg increase and 180~210 flat arc dmg depending on quality, which is roughly the same as top tier %arc only gems.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Tsmp » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:58 am

Astrichthyes wrote:
Tsmp wrote:Have you tried seeing if the TF's third-stage self buff puts the arcane damage high enough to outpace the strength scaling UTF?

No, I haven't even done any buff calculations. I'm primarily interested in raw damage because I don't personally use the buffs. I can still test the significance of the buff and compare it to a pure str.

Speaking of the buff, I was reading this page and it had me confused
http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Logarius%27+Wheel
If you read the details on the buff, it says the first L2 does not deplete hp, yet I am getting a consistent drain at about 10hp per second. Is the wiki page wrong or am I just misunderstanding it?

Yeah, that's incorrect. Also, I'm pretty sure there are only three stages of the buff, not four.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:49 am

There's 4 revs, so 4 buffs. 1% hp drain each spin, 10% damage increase each spin.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:17 pm

I obtained and tested a radial +flat arcane
gem last night. Here are my results from testing with it under the same conditions as prior testing:

30s/25a with no gems
AR: 325p+64a
DMG:
272UTF
353TF

30s/25a with +7.4%p, +25.9arc gem
AR: 349+91a
DMG:
317UTF
393TF

The data indicates that flat increases are not multiplied and seem to have a much more minor effect than anticipated (I expected something around the 2.7x's increase that I saw with my +18%arc gem that added 27dmg with 10AR). A top tier flat gem probably won't increase overall damage by much more than 150 with additional attack+% gems. I guess I'll have to farm gems in depth 5 dungeons and see what I can find.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:09 pm

Might want to include a few spins. Without spins it's flat arc dmg. The idea is seeing wether flat arcane gets a major percent boost.

25 flat arcane getting turned into 35 is no big whoop. 210 turning into 294 however... 30% increased dmg on a str weapon with S scaling... Could be alot of dmg... Could be alot of crap.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:00 pm

Vumsy wrote:Might want to include a few spins. Without spins it's flat arc dmg. The idea is seeing wether flat arcane gets a major percent boost.

25 flat arcane getting turned into 35 is no big whoop. 210 turning into 294 however... 30% increased dmg on a str weapon with S scaling... Could be alot of dmg... Could be alot of crap.

True enough, which is why I'll be testing both top-tier percent and flat gems as soon as I acquire them
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby rkzhao » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:22 pm

So I'm guessing arcane AR is only applied when wheel is transformed (2h).

Trying the wheel out, I'm mainly focusing on the 2h roll r1 because I see it as the most spammable move. Tested stuff out on the watchmen guys around cathedral between 30/35 and 50/15. The damage was very slightly higher with the high arc but 1h wheel damage took a significant hit compared to high str.

For pvp, I'm seeing high str as still more versatile. Would be more interesting if a couple of people can do testing together in pvp so that we know what the arc def stats are and how it's applied.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:03 pm

rkzhao wrote:So I'm guessing arcane AR is only applied when wheel is transformed (2h).

Trying the wheel out, I'm mainly focusing on the 2h roll r1 because I see it as the most spammable move. Tested stuff out on the watchmen guys around cathedral between 30/35 and 50/15. The damage was very slightly higher with the high arc but 1h wheel damage took a significant hit compared to high str.

For pvp, I'm seeing high str as still more versatile. Would be more interesting if a couple of people can do testing together in pvp so that we know what the arc def stats are and how it's applied.

ARC and PHYS are both present in both forms, but their strengths seem to switch so that ARC is dealing the majority of the damage in TF state. My understanding is that the best way to approach this weapon will likely be to use all Cursed Nourishing Damp Blood Gem with the highest rating possible so you aren't limited as a one-trick pony. Boosting both attributes simultaneously will allow you to not only hit hard, but use both stances interchangeably. I'm currently trying to find Amygdala in a RFC Ihyll Root dungeon. What I'll be doing to prevent wasting materials while I try to get said boss to appear is use ps+ backups and play the RNG game with level rushing.

If anyone knows a glyph for RFC Ihyll with Amygdala, please post it, as it will save me a lot of time. I have had no luck looking it up besides finding an Izs glyph, which does no good for radial gem farming
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Vumsy » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:54 am

Brainsuckers in FRC pthumeru ihyll root drops radials. They can sometimes be found guarding chests and levers.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:32 am

Vumsy wrote:Brainsuckers in FRC pthumeru ihyll root drops radials. They can sometimes be found guarding chests and levers.

I'll keep an eye out for them. The best flat gem I have so far is a triangular +49ARC that I'll be testing as soon as possible. Still no luck on the uncanny logwheel, but I have a glyph and lots of ore ready for it. Oh, I also found a radial abyssal arcane gem in great izs as a drop from pthum elder and another gem that increases arcane scaling. It's something around 22% arcane with a weak secondary poison effect for the abyssal and 8.8 for the other gem. I'll try to do a comparison of damage so we can estimate scaling and base damage for the TF state. I'm also fighting the pthum Ihyll final boss tonight if anyone would like to join me for co-op. She almost OHKO'd me last night with a seemingly weak attack, so I took the bold hunters strategy and split
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby DidoRumbus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:57 am

Astrichthyes wrote:If anyone knows a glyph for RFC Ihyll with Amygdala, please post it, as it will save me a lot of time. I have had no luck looking it up besides finding an Izs glyph, which does no good for radial gem farming

Hey astri, you've probably seen this site but it's worth checking out: http://www.chalicefinder.com/
I haven't really used it myself, but the old google sheet is pretty good (linked at the site), I bet you can find Amygdala Ihyll there.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:05 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:If anyone knows a glyph for RFC Ihyll with Amygdala, please post it, as it will save me a lot of time. I have had no luck looking it up besides finding an Izs glyph, which does no good for radial gem farming

Hey astri, you've probably seen this site but it's worth checking out: http://www.chalicefinder.com/
I haven't really used it myself, but the old google sheet is pretty good (linked at the site), I bet you can find Amygdala Ihyll there.

I have not seen that site before, but i'll give it a go. Thanks for the link

Edit: checked the link and, unfortunately, the only RFC Ihyll root they have on there does not list bosses, only loot. In light of this, I think testing will be unavoidable, but I will make sure to catalogue the glyph(s), loot, and bosses I encounter until I find my coveted Amygdala. After I get a couple of high-level cursed ATK+% gems, I'll go for a high-level +flat arcane gem and compare the two in damage increases (also going to look into a high level +arc scaling gem as well, although I think it will be inferior to percent or flat gems). Due to the dual-scaling of the Logwheel, I think the ATK gems will be the best way to go. I just obtained an uncanny logwheel, but need a few more chunks to upgrade it. I'll also need to farm a few more BoL's to create RFC Ihyll root and use a glyph to get a blood rock for it.

I feel as if the work you need to create a PvP character is much greater than all previous games, requiring multiple playthroughs to get your equipment maxed while also requiring you to go through the chalice dungeons if you want to play without a large disadvantage.

On a side note, the witches that throw fireballs and carry arcane-spraying skulls drop circular passive regen gems at a very low rate, but they are worth farming for pve. I got one that decreases my already low dmg vs the kin on my blunderbuss, but heals +4hp per tic.
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Re: Logwheel Testing

Postby Astrichthyes » Sun May 03, 2015 11:07 pm

I just found this spreadsheet that should help a lot in our building and testing efforts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

The gems we'll want to compare are:
+21.5% ATK
+72.5 ARC
+22.5 ARC scaling
+27.2% ARC

That said, we can extrapolate how much each gem type will increase the power of the Logwheel. My hunch is that the scaling gem will be easily eclipsed by the other gems, but we shall see. I'll be doing another run of tests very soon, possibly tonight, and i'll report my results ASAP.

Since the yarnham axeman had lower defense than the brick fist, I'll be doing the remainder of my tests against him. Tonight, I'll be testing a 15% ATK gem , 18% physical gem, and a +49ARC gem and perform a simple extrapolation calculation to estimate the damage increases we should see from each path. Here are my formulas:

Y = X[(1.215^3)-1]/.15 where X = dmg increase in adding the 15% ATK gem and Y = projected dmg increases from three 21.5% ATK gems.

For the flat gem, we can estimate the arcane damage increase with some simple multiplication
H/49 = G/(3*72.5) such that H = dmg increase from +49 flat gem and G = projected dmg from 3 72.5 flat gems. An additional calculation is required to find the physical damage increase.

G = H(3*72.5)/49 represents the arcane damage increase.

The physical damage increase may be represented with this formula (using 18% physical gem as an example):

L = K[(1.098^3)-1]/0.18 with K = damage increase from the 18% physical gem and L = the projected increase from 3 of the top-tier flat arcane gems.


Given this formula, we can now approximate the total damage increase from the 3 flat gems with

G + L = H(3*72.5)/49 + K[(1.098^3)-1]/0.18 where G+L=total damage increase from three 9.8%P+72.5A gems

All of these calculations assume a linear relationship between damage and AR. If it turns out to be logarithmic, then the math becomes much more complex. I also have a 9.1%ATK gem that I can use to test whether the relationship is relatively linear or logarithmic in nature, which should help determine how high or low the estimates are. Since this math is relatively simple, it may save a lot of time otherwise spent farming. If these formulas do happen to be accurate, I will post a general formula for each case so that they may be used to calculate damage increases for other weapons.

EDIT: Here is the data. I made a mistake with the formulas the first time around, but I have fixed them, so they should be much more accurate

30/25 Logwheel+10 no gems vs Yarnham axeman
AR: 325P+64A
DMG:
293UTF
377TF

30/25 +18% physical gem
AR: 383P+64A
DMG:
354UTF (+61)
418TF (+41)

30/25 +49ARC gem
AR: 325P+114A
DMG:
338UTF (+45)
427TF (+50)

30/25 +15%ATK gem
AR: 374P+74A
DMG:
352UTF (+59)
447TF (+70)

Here is the data I got from a 15%+9.1%ATK gem combo for comparison with my previous data:

30/25 + 15%ATK,+9.1%ATK
AR: 408P+81A
DMG:
393UTF (+100)
497TF (+120)

The extrapolated damage increases look like this:

Three 21.5%ATK gems extrapolated from a 15%ATK gem
Y = X[(1.215^3)-1]/.15
+312dmg UTF
+370dmg TF

Three 9.8%P+72.5ARC gems extrapolated from 18%P and +49A gem
G + L = H(3*72.5)/49 + K[(1.098^3)-1]/0.18
+310dmg UTF
+296dmg TF

My estimated damage for the 1st regular r1 in the Logwheel moveset vs the NG axeman is 605UTF and 747TF. Those numbers look pretty damn good to me, considering they will benefit from a moveset modifier (1st r1's are 1.0).

So, it seems the damage increase from the flat arcane gems will be relatively close to the ATK gems in the UTF state, but the ATK gems overtake the flats by a large margin in the TF state. In addition to this, the ATK gems may have a secondary effect for a little extra damage, the damage we extrapolated will be further multiplied by moveset (making that extra 74 damage in the TF state over 100 in some cases), and will inherently deal a lot more damage on viscerals. On a smaller weapon such as Burial Blade or Blade of Mercy, the flat gems may be a better option for raw damage, although I cannot be sure, as I have not tested them.
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Re: Logwheel Testing: Updated 5/5/15

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri May 08, 2015 4:43 pm

I've been doing some testing regarding the buff and scaling of the wheel and i'm quite surprised.

30/25 Logwheel+10 (no gems)
AR:
No buffs 390, 1 buff 404, 2 buffs 403, 3 buffs 416

30/25 Logwheel+10 with +15%ATK, +18.2%ATK, +8.7P, and +20.3%ARC
AR:
No buffs 557, 1 buff 579, 2 buffs 578, 3 buffs 599

Oddly enough, the actual damage increases were a little more than double the AR increases, which leads me to believe that there is both hidden scaling and a relatively high moveset multiplier involved. I'll be doing some further (and more specific) testing soon.

Update: no testing just yet, but I think the lost version of the logwheel will be much easier to farm for than the uncanny. Rom is turning out to be an absolute nightmare to get through, even with help. Amygdala, on the other hand, is much easier to deal with and will only OHKO on a direct hit or on his leap attack. No minions or attacks with crazy tracking. I'll be grabbing a blood rock very soon for it and need only obtain chunks. Until I get said items, I'll be going through izs to farm a cursed abyssal nourishing. From there, I can farm chunks from the cainhurst gargoyles. I'll be sure to test the damage increases from an abyssal nourishing and see how much the buffs should increase damage with all 3 gems

Tested the buffs on the Logwheel again, but I did something a little different. I noticed that having under 1k max hp (cursed dungeon) forces the first buff to have no side-effect, which can be helpful in special situations like a cursed dungeon. This also means that the second buff will be free at under 500hp and so on. There is one strange thing about the buffs though. You hit L2 4 times and you cancel out your buffs with the 4th press. But if you hit L2 3 times, wait, and then hit it another 3 times, you can get more than 3 buffs. Just a side thing I encountered. I'm farming Amygdala in Izs atm and will further update tonight if possible.
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Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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