phero wrote:Awesome thread Although would be a lot easier if From Soft simply could give us the numbers.
Anyway I don't think scaling is reversed because even in a pure str build the trick mode always does more damage than regular. Instead I think the base damage changes so that the arcane portion of the damage is relatively a lot higher. Still, part of that base damage is also still physical and scales with the str stat at it's S scaling, which is why in the long run the str stat is still the better way to go (past 25).
So perhaps only the base damage changes in favour of arcane, while the scaling stays the same.
My test results:
Logarius wheel+9 damage vs ng Yarnham axeman ( no blood gems)
50/10 1h: 312 2h: 309
50/13 1h: 314 2h: 319
50/14 1h: 315 2h: 323
Logwheel+10, no gems, vs brick-fists past Gilbert's window with normal r1's
phero wrote:This page shows that at 50s/50a the 1H mode slightly outdamages the 2H mode on a normal or dash R1 (non-revved), however, in that test there are three physical 27,2% gems equipped:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/com ... l_weapons/
phero wrote:I now have a character with a 50str/10a wheel at +10. No gems on NG Yarnham axeman:
Tested multiple times.
Edit: farmed some echoes and swapped a save file. More tests:
Astrichthyes wrote: Looks very similar to my original data set. The unfortunate side of this weapon is that the physical scaling seems quite strong, but that 2h arcane damage is so much better. 4-5 damage per point up to 25A without gems is extremely good for a C-scaling stat. I'm actually thinking that the reason the physical side is so weak is because most enemies in the game seem to have higher blunt def than slash or pierce. A 1h KH running r2 can sometimes deal more damage than the 1h Logwheel.
I had my very first invader last night and got to see how my damage was. A little over 500 damage on a dash r1 counter, about 350 on a non-CH. The guy never landed a hit with the burial blade and couldn't even pop his first vial.
phero wrote:Man, those multihit attacks are pretty crazy with flat arc gems. I wonder how revving adds to those.
Where are you getting those %P / +flat arc gems?
phero wrote:So I got my hands on an uncanny wheel, upgraded it to +10, and farmed some %p / flat arc gems.
My uncanny setup:
8,4%p / 67,5 arc / -10,1% kin
9,1%p / 65 arc / +2,9% stamcost
9,5%p / 70 arc /-11,3% beasts
My normal wheel setup (for testing purposes):
15% all atk
22,3%p / 5,2% charge / -60,8 dur
19,8%p / -8 hp
Not the most fair comparison by any means, but this is all I have right now. Tested on NG+ axeman with a 50str/11arc build.
Edit: corrected gains compared to no gems, as they were mistakingly based on the NG damage data.
Astrichthyes wrote:Unfortunately, the ATK gems will not be as good on a 50/11 as a split. I honestly think you're better off using top tier blunt gems or +flat arc's that boost blunt damage ( if that's even possible/feasible to do) in order to maximize your overall damage. Sadly, blunt gems do not contribute to visceral attacks, so those will be very weak. That said, the 1h version of the wheel will hit incredibly hard with 3 blunt gems and can be swapped out for your alt weapon for visceral attacks.
With +21.5%ATK, 2.8% rally, -11.3%kin
phero wrote:Astrichthyes wrote:Unfortunately, the ATK gems will not be as good on a 50/11 as a split. I honestly think you're better off using top tier blunt gems or +flat arc's that boost blunt damage ( if that's even possible/feasible to do) in order to maximize your overall damage. Sadly, blunt gems do not contribute to visceral attacks, so those will be very weak. That said, the 1h version of the wheel will hit incredibly hard with 3 blunt gems and can be swapped out for your alt weapon for visceral attacks.
Well we have some data to compare regarding all atk gems.
In a previous post you stated your increases when adding one all atk gem:With +21.5%ATK, 2.8% rally, -11.3%kin
I have tested adding one 15% all atk gem on the 50/11 char. Results:
1H: 372 (no gems: 310, difference of +62)
2H: 379 (no gems: 318, difference of +61)
Doesn't seem all that bad, considering the difference in gem quality. However I don't know how stacking the gems interacts with my pure build vs your spread build. And ofcourse you have about 7 points less spend, but I'm not sure if that affects the margins by a whole lot. Perhaps you can test with one %15 all atk gem so we can compare more directly.
phero wrote:I wonder if blunt affects all attacks in both modes. I have my doubts, but I haven't tested this yet.
Also, a 50/10 has 387 + 51 = 438 AR;
And a 50/10 with 3x21,5 ATK has 694 + 92 = 786 AR.
That's 439 and 787 for 50/11.
phero wrote:Alright, definitely worth checking out. Thanks for the calculations. Btw, I've also seen %blunt + flat arc gems, but I'm not sure if they roll higher than %p + flat arc.
Do you know where the top blunt gems drop? I cannot see any on the spreadsheet, but I'm probably missing something (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0).
Edit: never mind, found the answer on reddit. Lucky me, I can farm gems for kirk and log at the same time, off a first boss.
Edit2: although I'm still not sure where to find non-radial blunts.
phero wrote:I was seeing similair numbers with the flat gems. PvP invaders almost lost half their hp on a 2H dash.
It's a shame that the waning slot is only really good for ATK gems. Would be pretty awesome to be able to have both a %blunt and a flat arc version of this weapon, being able to switch depending on the situation. I'm already loving the versatility provided by being able to switch from physical to arc on the spot depending on what enemy I'm facing. Combining that with all the different stat and gem setups this weapon has, it might be one of the most versatile weapons in BB in that regard.
I might try a 2x %blunt + 1x %p / flat arc combo and see how that balances out. That way I'd still get a little bit out of the 2H MHA multiplier. But perhaps it's better simply going all in on one or the other.
phero wrote:I won't be playing a lot the coming month, but I look forward to seeing how much damage a 3x blunt setup is going to do once I do get those gems.
As for the math, the only thing I can add is that the official guide states a 0,1 change to the arc multiplier per rev (as in 1,0 for 0 revs and 1,4 for 4 revs; but perhaps you knew this already). It's also likely that the digital version of the guide will add more details on the exact scaling mechanics in 2H mode (the paper guide is lacking that info), but unfortunately it won't be released until somewhere in June.
phero wrote:Great job, should be more than enough info for anyone wondering how to build with this weapon.
So after all these tests, what are your thoughts on the best setup for this weapon? I'm thinking, based on your posts:
- Pure str with blunts seems the best choice for the highest average damage across all forms.
- Split with flat arcs seems best if you really want to maximise pvp burst at the cost of everything else.
- Poison build is best to destroy bosses and other high HP targets, and to confuse people in pvp, at the cost of overall damage.
- And if you can build for 50/25+, nourishing gems will start pulling ahead.
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