The Pure Souls Fight Club

Talk about the various online aspects of Bloodborne. Including Co-Op and PvP.

Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:49 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:
DidoRumbus wrote:My skill/bld was not crippled without ash, and I suspect that a 50 BT evelyn or shotgun would still be very good. BT build is a 1-trick pony anyway (2H chikage plus gun).
I'd like to throw out that one trick pony doesn't really mean a whole lot in Bloodborne, considering how the PvP works the chikage may be predictable but that doesn't ever mean it's not deadly.

Bad word choice, I mean limited moveset. With a BT build you know what you're going up against. Yeah they can throw a saw spear at you and if they have 25 skill it will be OK, but for the most part it's 2H chikage.

Magicisoverrated wrote:
DidoRumbus wrote:Skill build still has very damaging viscerals with 1 gem, I suspect that clawmark would approach 1HKO territory but I do not have the numbers to back that up. I am indifferent to this rule.
Without clawmark? maybe it wont ohko, but with clawmark? it most certainly should ohko.

1 gem skill definitely won't ohko without clawmark. It probably will ("most certainly should"... :P ) with clawmark, but I haven't tried or considered the numbers.

Magicisoverrated wrote:
DidoRumbus wrote:I also feel that depth 5 is limiting, since with 1 gem even the 19% from mensis is enough to play. The chalice grind is not for everyone. I only have 1 that can join, maybe 2 I can't remember haha.
It's really not a big deal, most established PvP areas have always been fairly late game and PvP has always required a bit of farming to achieve competitive status in (unless you used megamule) all things considered getting to a depth 5 dungeon is not very hard, and a 19% gem is enough if you don't want to grind out a 27% one but it's no different than playing with a +9 weapon over a +10

I agree that it's not a big deal. But there is no reason to pick level 5 over a more accessible dungeon... And there is a reason to pick a more accessible dungeon.

Jumilaattori wrote:
DidoRumbus wrote:1 gem does not make arcane versatile, it makes arcane viable. Arcane (with at least 1 gem allowed) just happens to be a versatile build.
Its same to all. 1 gem makes arcane do more dmg yes? So if its a slow clumsy weapon vs a fast weapon.. slow weapon has better chances, is that it?

1 gem doesn't just make arcane do more damage, it makes it do an amount of damage that is greater than using a weapon with base stats. It allows weapons to actually scale with the ARC stat (and switch damage type to arc/fire/bolt). With no gems an arcane build is a vit-gouge with no extra vit. Of course the hybrid weapons get a small advantage from 50 ARC, but it is very very little compared to a physical gem on the same weapons. So with 0 gem rule arcane build is not relevant. Allow 1 gem and arcane build can do comparable damage to physical (but still less).

Jumilaattori wrote:Silver sword outspaces katana period :)

A bullet without blood does no dmg, with these rules what is the dmg of 50 blood bullet?

Cannon will hit 900 dmg vs an open foe, phantom v phantom and its like 2 r1 + cannon to K.O

Yeah I'm not impressed with kat moveset if it wasn't obvious :D A 25 BT evelyn (with no damage gems) hits for 100. Possibly 200 with 50 BT? Enough to be relevant considering other weapons R1 for about the same damage (with 1 gem). I don't mind facing cannon, it can be i-framed, so if you land cannon it's a gg from me!
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:17 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:1 gem skill definitely won't ohko without clawmark. It probably will ("most certainly should"... :P ) with clawmark, but I haven't tried or considered the numbers.


We are assuming that neither person has hit each other the entire match, even if a little bit of damage has been inflicted, with clawmark it's pretty much overkill, without clawmark it may not depending on how early in the fight the parry is landed. To assume perfect scenarios is never realistic, theoretically something may appear balanced, but Astrichthyes has put a lot of time and effort into seeing what works and what does not work in practice, i trust his judgement far more than i do theory.


DidoRumbus wrote:Yeah I'm not impressed with kat moveset if it wasn't obvious :D A 25 BT evelyn (with no damage gems) hits for 100. Possibly 200 with 50 BT? Enough to be relevant considering other weapons R1 for about the same damage (with 1 gem). I don't mind facing cannon, it can be i-framed, so if you land cannon it's a gg from me!


Anything can be i-framed, point is quality of dueling > build diversity, i do not believe canon is outright banned because it's extremely limited, but fishing for ohko is not really what this is about, in fact this has been created to specifically mitigate and get away from abuse of such tactics. hizzngr3 is always an option, anything goes there.

As for placing it in a depth 5 dungeon? hard to say, but i think it was to mitigate the amount of SRRC invasions and what kind of randoms/alts may want to get involved for some laughs. And really, if you're serious about BB PvP you're going to have access to depth 5 anyway for gems.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:17 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:We are assuming that neither person has hit each other the entire match, even if a little bit of damage has been inflicted, with clawmark it's pretty much overkill, without clawmark it may not depending on how early in the fight the parry is landed. To assume perfect scenarios is never realistic, theoretically something may appear balanced, but Astrichthyes has put a lot of time and effort into seeing what works and what does not work in practice, i trust his judgement far more than i do theory.

I'm not coming from a place of theory, empirical evidence demonstrates that 1 gem visceral will never be a OKHO. I'll give you an example. The other day I landed 2-3 hits on astri, then a visceral, and he was still alive. I was using a 50 SKL saw spear or reiter with one 27.2% gem, and I don't recall what armour he was wearing or what runes he had equipped. On another guy I landed a visceral at just above 50% HP (vader HP I should say), and that did KO. It would be nice if I had damage numbers, but even without there appears to be a decent range in HP over which you have to make a judgement whether it is worth it to heal, or risk visceral death.

The clawmark ban, like I said, I have not really considered. I don't even recall the % increase off the top of my head. I'm inclined to agree with you, but show me a damage calc or simply some numbers from in-game and I could be convinced to agree. Or don't worry about it, I'm not pressing for removal of ban :D

Regarding cannon, I suppose it's worth a discussion. It has not been a problem for me (it doesn't reduce the enjoyment I get from fights), but it could be in this environment.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:55 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:I'm not coming from a place of theory, empirical evidence demonstrates that 1 gem visceral will never be a OKHO. I'll give you an example. The other day I landed 2-3 hits on astri, then a visceral, and he was still alive. I was using a 50 SKL saw spear or reiter with one 27.2% gem, and I don't recall what armour he was wearing or what runes he had equipped. On another guy I landed a visceral at just above 50% HP (vader HP I should say), and that did KO. It would be nice if I had damage numbers, but even without there appears to be a decent range in HP over which you have to make a judgement whether it is worth it to heal, or risk visceral death.

The clawmark ban, like I said, I have not really considered. I don't even recall the % increase off the top of my head. I'm inclined to agree with you, but show me a damage calc or simply some numbers from in-game and I could be convinced to agree. Or don't worry about it, I'm not pressing for removal of ban :D

Regarding cannon, I suppose it's worth a discussion. It has not been a problem for me (it doesn't reduce the enjoyment I get from fights), but it could be in this environment.




He also banned it to further discourage parry spamming, which is highly valid, if a parry with 1 gem is indeed that low than that is actually really good news, a parry with a clawmark however is going to make the gap for OHKO much wider, so imo if your numbers are accurate then it's perfect the way it is currently. As you said yourself, there is a trade off mechanic that adds a healthy dynamic to gameplay.I would say an Ohko just above 50% hp is very much in line with competitive.

to entertain your proposal, i'm going to use very basic math, it wont be anywhere near accurate. But let's say you can Ohko at 52%, a clawmark is going to add 15% damage to your visceral attack, so let's say he had 1800hp. So 1800*.52=936 damage. adding one visceral rune @ 936 damage is going to increase it by 140.4 936*.15=140.4 which equals a total of 1076.4 damage which is roughly now 60% of that opponents health can you do an OHKO. things continually to look worse with every stacked claw rune, the higher the percentage of HP you can land an OHKO the worse things are. I take back what i said about it "definitely landing an OHKO" i haven't played around with 1 gem enough, but any mitigation to OHKO tactics is favorable.

Personally, i enjoyed using Hornets ring in Dks, Back in 2011 my viewpoints of PvP were kind of in line with yours, but I've played souls so much to the point where ohko tactics and similar shenanigans just don't amuse me as much as outplaying your opponent does. So i see the personal bias in my view on the canon, but do you honestly see ohko fishing as competitive?
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:36 pm

Jumi, there are holes in your argument that i'd like to address, so I'll explain the rules and reasoning behind them:

1) limited heals, like Dido said, makes fights a little longer and more interesting without detracting from them. They don't drag on because the player with the hp advantage does tend to set the pace for the fight. It's about 1-3 minutes per fight, depending on how evenly matched the players are and how much damage they trade.

2) Clawmarks: the highest damage i've seen in the club is 600 on a dh charged Kirkhammer 2h r2 with a 27.2% tempering gem. The second highest damage i've seen in the club is a 50SKL reiter riposte, which did about 600 damage to my full Cainhurst-armor-clad SL 100. If you add in Clawmarks, you multiply the AR of your visceral by that percentage and they stack multiplicatively. That means the damage amplifies drastically while mitigation from natural def cannot keep up. What this equates to, after doing the math, is a visceral over 1050 damage from the very same reiter, not including the damage from the gunshot, which would be an extra 100-200ish damage on top of that 1050+. I see no evidence or valid argument for promoting this "style" of play since it could very well be a single gunshot to end the fight. Not only that, but since phantom hp is less than host hp, allowing this "strategy" would technically give the host a huge advantage since they already heal more hp per vial and have a much higher OHKO threshold. I have always said this and will continue to say this: in a game with healing, the player that can OHKO will usually win. Though, of course, this may still be the case in a game without healing as well.

3) no damage gem on guns brings their damage somewhat into line with everything else. 50B Evelyn is still going to hit about 200 without a gem, which easily rivals the damage per hit from most mid-sized weapons with a single gem and is still obscenely OP compared to the rest of the meta. Add on a bloodtinge gem and it will probably hit another 50-100 damage per shot, not including dh bonuses. Add ash with no gem and your damage will be about 400-450. Combine ash and a gem and evelyn goes up to 600+ damage. Now, considering the fact that a Kirk charged r2 deals the same amount as the ash+gem+evelyn setup when the Kirk gets a dh bonus and the evelyn isn't even accounting for that, that's just insanity. And it isn't even accounting for the possible visceral you can get! Not only that, but allowing ash allows for guaranteed OHKO's from the cannon on dh's, which is just plain stupidity. I don't believe there's any further explanation i can give you. You shouldn't logically expect to trade gunshots with the cannon, even if you do have an overpowered pea-shooter like the evelyn. Bans on ash and a damage gem for guns fix the inconsistency that is created when you have a gemmed-ashed evelyn trading and winning against a no-ash cannon. Lastly, the rules against ash and damage gems on guns actually adds competitive variety rather than detract from it because bloodtinge is no longer a dominating powerhouse.

4) The cannon is incredibly powerful for the meta created in this environment, but if you have it out, you're going to have players dance around you, watch your every move with utmost scrutiny, and slap you on the back with their weapon rather than try to attack your front and potentially die in one shot after taking a little bit of damage. You'll miss more often than you'll hit with the thing, you'll burn through a considerable amount of ammunition with each shot, and you'll be taking a substantial stamina regen reduction just by carrying the thing. It's quite the gimmick, if you ask me, and is unlikely to see much use in the club because of it. If you decide to run it, i wish you luck.

5) Granted, depth 5 is not ideal for everyone, but it certainly does discourage trolling. I don't see any trolls going as far as creating a new character from scratch and getting that character up and ready to go with a full run through the chalice dungeons just to troll us. I created a sinister ihyll primarily because most players go to depth 5 to get competitive gems anyway and do not need to go much further to get to the club location.

6) No gems = pure physical weapons across the board with the exceptions of BoM, BB, Logwheel, and Toni. Of these 4 weapons, only LW and Toni are legitimately arcane weapons. The arcane side of BoM and BB are so weak that an arcane build cannot hope to use them without having completely hopeless damage. This limits arcane builds to Toni and LW without using a weak base-stats weapon. Does a no-gem environment promote versatility? No. It hinders it because arcane is almost useless while pure physical thrives.

7) No gems brings all weapons down to base AR, which greatly reduces the AR difference between them. Medium weapons suddenly don't do a whole lot less than the big ones. Small weapons don't do a lot less than the medium weapons. Meanwhile, guns remain the same, so you'll have Evelyn actually outdamaging a lot of melee weapons. This doesn't account for the increased damage discrepancy between melee weapons and the cannon.

My rules are not made to arbitrarily give anyone an advantage, but to promote a level playing field, which they seem to have done based on the fights i've had.

To all: My only qualm with the entire club is actually the SL issue. If i'm running a SL 100 with 47V and 15e, I'm really cutting corners close to stay at 100 while having good damage. But if my SL 120 opponent is running 47v with 20e and 50 in 2 damage stats that stack on each other, they are at the same hp with slightly higher def, more end, and much higher relative damage. One of the randoms who quit on day 1 had a saw cleaver hitting higher damage values than my 50s Kirk. I'd like to set the SL for the club to 110 for the sake of fairness and balance, but doing so would force players to either create new characters or quit the club. My understanding of SL is that 120 in this game is a lot like 140 in DeS, but stats are more significant this time around. Most players who have participated are SL 120, so setting the level to 110 would be of great inconvenience to them, but i don't feel the playing field will be balanced until then because of the damage discrepancy between SL 100 - even 110 - and SL 120. I'd like some opinions and feedback on this.
Last edited by Astrichthyes on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:08 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:To all: My only qualm with the entire club is actually the SL issue. If i'm running a SL 100 with 47V and 15e, I'm really cutting corners close to stay at 100 while having good damage. But if my SL 120 opponent is running 47v with 20e and 50 in 2 damage stats, they are at the same hp with slightly higher def, more end, and much higher damage. One of the randoms who quit on day 1 had a saw cleaver hitting higher damage values than my Kirk. I'd like to set the SL for the club to 110 for the sake of fairness and balance, but doing so would force players to either create new characters or quit the club. Most players who have participated are SL 120, so setting the level to 110 would be of great inconvenience, but i don't feel the playing field will be balanced until then because of the damage discrepancy between SL 100 and SL 120. I'd like some opinions and feedback on this.


Optionally you can always run two metas. It's possible to have a Slvl 100 character, save that file and back it up then level to 120 at will. When you want to level back down just replace your save data with the Slvl 100 file. It's pretty easy to do and if you need help doing this i walk you through it on PSN. All you need is PS+ or a flash drive.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:18 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:
Astrichthyes wrote:To all: My only qualm with the entire club is actually the SL issue. If i'm running a SL 100 with 47V and 15e, I'm really cutting corners close to stay at 100 while having good damage. But if my SL 120 opponent is running 47v with 20e and 50 in 2 damage stats, they are at the same hp with slightly higher def, more end, and much higher damage. One of the randoms who quit on day 1 had a saw cleaver hitting higher damage values than my Kirk. I'd like to set the SL for the club to 110 for the sake of fairness and balance, but doing so would force players to either create new characters or quit the club. Most players who have participated are SL 120, so setting the level to 110 would be of great inconvenience, but i don't feel the playing field will be balanced until then because of the damage discrepancy between SL 100 and SL 120. I'd like some opinions and feedback on this.


Optionally you can always run two metas. It's possible to have a Slvl 100 character, save that file and back it up then level to 120 at will. When you want to level back down just replace your save data with the Slvl 100 file. It's pretty easy to do and if you need help doing this i walk you through it on PSN. All you need is PS+ or a flash drive.

I understand that doing this is actually very easy, but I don't think it really solves the problem. I was considering going to 110 on both of my pvp characters to round them out as builds.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:27 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:I understand that doing this is actually very easy, but I don't think it really solves the problem. I was considering going to 110 on both of my pvp characters to round them out as builds.


I'm not sure if theres a real way to solve this. Bloodborne PvP is incredibly inaccessible, 110 would be the next best thing but you will unfortunately alienate those who went to 120. Honestly i would make the level cap 120 because it gives people the option, and it's easy to level back down if you backup your save, 120 meta isn't so bad, but it's different than 100 for sure.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Jumilaattori » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:56 pm

Glad to hear that this has picked up.

Thx for explaining Ast. I would say that my posts were more like questions than arguments.

I accept 1 gem and arcane now that you and Dido explained it so well, that´ s all I wanted to hear.

I was posting for the sake of discussion and dif povs. As I stated early on I dun mind playing with lesser gems and runes and whatnot, I enjoy handicap and being the underdog.

I´m with Dido on depth5 dungeon and I think most play for fun rather than to be competitive. I doubt that "trolls" will be a problem and even if it means more players and an occasional "trolls" on lower depth that´s a fair trade I´d say.

I got cannon on weapon slot everytime, its a deterrence and my build is Q and its fucking awesome, its ranged dbs. Dido had the spirit, if you hit me with it, its gg. I´ve stated my setup and learned the timing and I got no stamina problems, if opponents want to dash around, then they dash around, momentum is with me.

I think many dmg numbers like 1hk ripostes with 1 gem and 50 bt evelyn wounds are overstated. That being said I like these rules, they sound good even tho I think some of them are not needed.

I haven´t had time to play in days but I´ll check now if I can join this dungeon.

Looking forward to get some duels with old buddies and maybe facing immortalized ledgends like magic!

edit: About Lv, I think you should lv up to 120 if it bothers you or be the underdog at times and accept that some of the players are lv 120.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:13 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:Looking forward to get some duels with old buddies and maybe facing immortalized ledgends like magic!


I am looking forward to it.

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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Jumilaattori » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:41 pm

I can´t join this dungeon. I need red jellies to make so I had to make loran depth5 to get jellies and maybe another loran to get more jellies and then clear this dungeon you made so instead of PvP I´m forced to do Pve which is not cool and I quit after clearing the 1st lv of loran.

To make a new toon and run all those boring dungeons again is out of question. Let´s see maybe I can join this dungeon during weekend/next week.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:23 pm

@Magic, I should clarify, opponent was sitting at just above 50% HP and visceral killed him, but it's possible that it overkilled by a decent margin. Maybe 60%? Need more data, let's do some tests! And check cannon and 30% clawmark 1-gem visceral, eliminate the guesswork! Without getting into the "competitive" aspect, I'll just say that for this fight club, I think that 1200 damage viscerals would definitely make fights less enjoyable, but 600 damage viscerals, 900 damage cannon, and 200 damage evelyn would not. For cannon, the restriction to 2 shots (if you make blood bullets), impact on stamina regen, and allowing heals is a part of that :)

@Astri, my opinion on best SL is same as yours, 110 ideal. However I say allow up to 120 or even 125 simply because this broadens the appeal to others. For example my first character I had planned to stop at 100, but went to 120 b/c chalices were giving me a tough time. You might get more randoms interested this way (makes it more approachable), while the regulars sit at 110. Unless you have a specific event in mind (tourney), in which case restrict to 110. You might want to leave 1 of your builds at 100 though, in case you want to run a 100 event!

@Jumi we shall have cannon vs cannon duel :P You can get 2 red jellies from main game (I want to say the top of the tower just before Rom) if you want to NG+, or yeah loran bonus rooms. If you have some spare insight, stock up on blue elixers and run through to the bonus rooms and levers. This can be really helpful in loran b/c of all the damn bell ringing spider spawners. It's probably worth beating every chalice even if you don't want to farm gems since once you get level 5 root chalices you can very quickly get specific lost/uncanny weapons, 3 blood rocks, and max runes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1814333532). Can you summon to the main story chalices? I haven't tried, but if so shoot me a msg if I'm on and we'll trash some bosses together :)
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:26 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:@Magic, I should clarify, opponent was sitting at just above 50% HP and visceral killed him, but it's possible that it overkilled by a decent margin. Maybe 60%? Need more data, let's do some tests! And check cannon and 30% clawmark 1-gem visceral, eliminate the guesswork! Without getting into the "competitive" aspect, I'll just say that for this fight club, I think that 1200 damage viscerals would definitely make fights less enjoyable, but 600 damage viscerals, 900 damage cannon, and 200 damage evelyn would not. For cannon, the restriction to 2 shots (if you make blood bullets), impact on stamina regen, and allowing heals is a part of that :)


No real point in pulling in numbers for visceral attacks. We have already found that a low tier clawmark rune can push damage into the 1200~ range with a single gem, based off very simple math, clawmark is out of the question for a legit dueling atmosphere.

Canon isn't banned because you basically tell your opponent what you're up to just by having it out, you're gonna get dodged and traded the entire match, 200 damage evelyn is lel territory, i don't understand how you find that competitive, i get this is pop a cap in yo' ass souls but this is a gentleman's club. To each their own.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:29 pm

Jumi, you can buy red jelly from the insight vendor after you make great ihyll for 5 ea. That should make things easier for you

Dido, I actually have some testing I need to do if you are willing. We can test your visceral damage with all 3 clawmarks if you want. I am fairly certain it was 600 without the gunshot against the full Cainhurst set, which would multiply to about 1050 with all three runes. I wanted to test the damage efficiency of the arcane side of the wheel to determine an accurate AR multiplier for the TF state. It's likely to be anywhere from 4-5x's.

My calcs on the visceral damage were 600*1.1*1.2*1.3 = 1030 damage. This does not account for the fact that mitigation lessens as AR increases, so the actual damage value could potentially be 100-250 damage higher than my estimate of 1030. Add on a gunshot and that's easily OHKO territory. A single mid-range clawmarks rune will add on about 150 damage to a 600 damage visceral, which is too much after a 100-200 damage gunshot
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:55 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:200 damage evelyn is lel territory, i don't understand how you find that competitive, i get this is pop a cap in yo' ass souls but this is a gentleman's club. To each their own.

There's that word "competitive" again :P

All that matters to me is that I can enjoy a fight club where evelyn is used, subject to rules above (no ash, no damage gem). I can accept that gun is a large source of damage on a BT build, and when the damage number is comparable to a R1 from a light weapon it makes sense (think arrows in DkS2). With these rules I don't see why 50 BT build would have an overwhelming advantage to the point of unbalance. Anyway I don't even have a 50 BT build... so if you have one come give me hell and we'll see how it goes! I'm going to try to be on tonight.

Astrichthyes wrote:Jumi, you can buy red jelly from the insight vendor after you make great ihyll for 5 ea. That should make things easier for you

Dido, I actually have some testing I need to do if you are willing. We can test your visceral damage with all 3 clawmarks if you want. I am fairly certain it was 600 without the gunshot against the full Cainhurst set, which would multiply to about 1050 with all three runes. I wanted to test the damage efficiency of the arcane side of the wheel to determine an accurate AR multiplier for the TF state. It's likely to be anywhere from 4-5x's.

My calcs on the visceral damage were 600*1.1*1.2*1.3 = 1030 damage. This does not account for the fact that mitigation lessens as AR increases, so the actual damage value could potentially be 100-250 damage higher than my estimate of 1030. Add on a gunshot and that's easily OHKO territory. A single mid-range clawmarks rune will add on about 150 damage to a 600 damage visceral, which is too much after a 100-200 damage gunshot

I think you need 4 jellies just to make ihyll don't you? It's too bad you can't just drop items in this game, hope they bring that back for DkS3. But yeah I'm down, lets hook up this evening. I would have to actually get clawmarks to do that test :) I wouldn't mind testing how much mitigation matters for 1-gem R1, visceral, and gun damage (want to see if the 7% rune is better than stacking HP runes). I re-specced from PSN backup to have 32 BT on that toon also.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:03 am

DidoRumbus wrote:There's that word "competitive" again :P

All that matters to me is that I can enjoy a fight club where evelyn is used, subject to rules above (no ash, no damage gem). I can accept that gun is a large source of damage on a BT build, and when the damage number is comparable to a R1 from a light weapon it makes sense (think arrows in DkS2). With these rules I don't see why 50 BT build would have an overwhelming advantage to the point of unbalance. Anyway I don't even have a 50 BT build... so if you have one come give me hell and we'll see how it goes! I'm going to try to be on tonight.

I think you need 4 jellies just to make ihyll don't you? It's too bad you can't just drop items in this game, hope they bring that back for DkS3. But yeah I'm down, lets hook up this evening. I would have to actually get clawmarks to do that test :) I wouldn't mind testing how much mitigation matters for 1-gem R1, visceral, and gun damage (want to see if the 7% rune is better than stacking HP runes). I re-specced from PSN backup to have 32 BT on that toon also.

You only need 2 jellies. I can always make my throwaway character have 50B just to test Evelyn. There is one other test I want to do as well, but I'll leave that a surprise
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:28 am

DidoRumbus wrote:There's that word "competitive" again :P

All that matters to me is that I can enjoy a fight club where evelyn is used, subject to rules above (no ash, no damage gem). I can accept that gun is a large source of damage on a BT build, and when the damage number is comparable to a R1 from a light weapon it makes sense (think arrows in DkS2). With these rules I don't see why 50 BT build would have an overwhelming advantage to the point of unbalance. Anyway I don't even have a 50 BT build... so if you have one come give me hell and we'll see how it goes! I'm going to try to be on tonight.


i use the word "competitive" because that's exactly what this is all about. What exactly is the point of testing how OP something is already known to be with 1 gem? It's basically a situation that is never going to arise outside of "competitive" gameplay. Furthermore, why would we pull numbers and test things for a format that is not competitive and anything goes? i can already tell you clawmark visceral will ohko with 3 gems on, there is no purpose in testing how much damage it can do when it's beyond overkill.

Also, 50 BT is hands down the most dangerous build in the game, fundamentally broken for PvE and downright brutal in PvP, the gun damage is salt on the wound, even if a parry attempt misses you're taking what is basically a normal hit from a safe range, no other build matches it in raw damage potential and it encourages mashing the L2 button. Dks2 is a bad comparison because nobody cares enough about the PvP in that game to even begin to attempt what we are attempting here with Bloodborne, everything in Dks2 is broken and it's populated by a bunch of over leveled underachievers, absolutely nothing is redeeming about that games PvP whatsoever, i'd rather not continue on that but we've far surpassed the realm of saying the game is just "different" and have entered what is now general consensus, a majority of souls fans dislike Dks2 PvP, to enjoy it is to be different, disliking Dks2 PvP is quite literally normal. So side tangent aside, the whole point of PvP is to be competitive unless you're trolling, point blank.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:39 am

@Magic. Oh hell I was trying not to get into it but just for you :P

The basic premise of a competition is contest, with the winner gaining some sort of award. In the context of a video game with 1v1 fights, we could be talking about recognition within the community, respect from your opponents, gaining youtube or twitch subs, money, or even a sense of personal satisfaction. I think this is what you were talking about when you said that you like the feeling that you get when you outplay your opponent? In any event, it would appear that for you, "the whole point of PvP is to be competitive", and if you can get this feeling from a fight club, then good for you!

I don't play video games competitively, just getting some time to play and enjoy the game is my award. Contest is not required, and when contest is present (1v1 fight), then winning is not required. Souls fight clubs are a way to extend the life of the game and enjoy it in a way that is different than PvE, PvP vs randoms, griefing, trolling, etc. The fact that a fight club may be competitive for others is not relevant, as long as I can enjoy it (adhering to the rules and format, not trolling or w/e). For me, "the whole point of PvP" is simply to enjoy the game. Good for me!

Getting to some of your points. Move past the issue of viscerals! I already agreed that clawmark would not be good in this format. My only point was to quantify, stop saying "it will probably OHKO" and determine actual numbers. Your response is that numbers are irrelevant, we've already agreed that it would not be good in this format. Nothing else to say, unless someone else wants to argue FOR clawmark. Next, "why would we pull numbers and test things for a format that is not competitive and anything goes?" The format is clearly not "anything goes", and if you choose to treat it as a competition then that's your call. Numbers are needed to support arguments. They can be used to justify a ban, to evaluate relative changes to the format (i.e. no gems vs 1 gem), to compare weapons, etc etc. All relevant to fight club I would say. Last point about 50 BT, part of what makes it so dangerous in PvP is gems and ash. In this format, I agree that it's a strong damage dealer, but it's not going to run the show. This is something that numbers could show, or just have some matches and evaluate.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:36 pm

DidoRumbus wrote:@Magic. Oh hell I was trying not to get into it but just for you :P

The basic premise of a competition is contest, with the winner gaining some sort of award. In the context of a video game with 1v1 fights, we could be talking about recognition within the community, respect from your opponents, gaining youtube or twitch subs, money, or even a sense of personal satisfaction. I think this is what you were talking about when you said that you like the feeling that you get when you outplay your opponent? In any event, it would appear that for you, "the whole point of PvP is to be competitive", and if you can get this feeling from a fight club, then good for you!


Competition is not limited to "the winner gaining some sort of award" hardly at all, that is actually quite an egotistical approach to competition. In the context of a video game, in the context of the world Olympics the definition of "competition" never changes and nowhere is it defined as gaining some sort of award (you can compete for the lack thereof). Point is let's just throw out the word competition since for you the word seems rather far too ambiguous and instead say "trial". In a fair trial everyone gets equal treatment, this is the only way to reach a verdict of who actually wins, in the context of a fight club the trial has to be emplaced with guidelines and regulation to ensure that one side does not hold advantage over the other, that is the entire purpose of a dueling society, to regulate fair trials between players to see who is most skillful and outplays the other, how much enjoyment i derive from that experience is entirely external to the purpose of the trial. While the whole point of PvP may not be competitive, the realm of competitive PvP is only found when both players agree to a trial.

DidoRumbus wrote:I don't play video games competitively, just getting some time to play and enjoy the game is my award. Contest is not required, and when contest is present (1v1 fight), then winning is not required. Souls fight clubs are a way to extend the life of the game and enjoy it in a way that is different than PvE, PvP vs randoms, griefing, trolling, etc. The fact that a fight club may be competitive for others is not relevant, as long as I can enjoy it (adhering to the rules and format, not trolling or w/e). For me, "the whole point of PvP" is simply to enjoy the game. Good for me!


Most people do not play video games competitively, i play grand theft auto online, i understand perfectly that most video games are there for personal enjoyment only, and that it's okay to play unfairly, i frequently call in a tank and simulate the invasion of Los Santos vis-à-vis ISIS, is this fair or even competitive? no it's not, but i also don't delude myself that it could ever possibly be either. In the presence of a fight club where players agree to undergo a trial of skill your personal enjoyment is irrelevant, what you find competitive is welcome to bring into question, however if you have more fun going for visceral Ohko's that is entirely irrelevant to whats trying to be done here, if you enjoy playing that way then you have no place engaging in an environment with other players who agree to put aside these things and engage in a true test of skill. If you only play for enjoyment, and also adhere to the rules then no harm no foul whatsoever, i'm happy for you, but it's kind of a short sighted way to approach this and it doesn't solve anything and it adds a double edged quality to your argument.

DidoRumbus wrote:Getting to some of your points. Move past the issue of viscerals! I already agreed that clawmark would not be good in this format. My only point was to quantify, stop saying "it will probably OHKO" and determine actual numbers. Your response is that numbers are irrelevant, we've already agreed that it would not be good in this format. Nothing else to say, unless someone else wants to argue FOR clawmark. Next, "why would we pull numbers and test things for a format that is not competitive and anything goes?" The format is clearly not "anything goes", and if you choose to treat it as a competition then that's your call. Numbers are needed to support arguments. They can be used to justify a ban, to evaluate relative changes to the format (i.e. no gems vs 1 gem), to compare weapons, etc etc. All relevant to fight club I would say. Last point about 50 BT, part of what makes it so dangerous in PvP is gems and ash. In this format, I agree that it's a strong damage dealer, but it's not going to run the show. This is something that numbers could show, or just have some matches and evaluate.



Once again there is absolutely no point in quantifying a given. We can sit around and quantify the exact value of the boiling point of water at different atmospheric pressures, but it doesn't change anything and those values are already given. Who gives a righteous flying shit if water boils at 285 degrees C at 1000 psi when we are looking for its vapor pressure @ atm = 1? (a rhetorical value) It's wholly pointless and it's already a given. We can calculate exactly how much damage clawmark rune will do from the fomulae found and it OHKO's for sure in any realistic situation, in a 1 gem scenario it at least hits for 1100-1400, a minimum of 65% of a phantoms health at slvl 110, this does not allow for a fair trial between players, because one side can be clearly winning the match, absolutely dominating and then the losing side can turn it around with a single lucky visceral attack- absolutely ridiculous. Numbers are not needed to support an argument that is obviously true, to quantify the exact value is a pointless endeavor served only to support a claim with no basis in the first place.

I agree about BT, however even under a trial you're going to find that BT has an edge, just how the game was designed and the fact that in japan the katana will always receive the most love as a weapon, it's their heritage, will it run the show in this format? no it wont, but it can edge out against two even opponents, it's just an unfortunate fact and the way BB was designed.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:10 pm

Honestly, testing clawmarks would be for laughs for me. I already know how much it will deal and it's completely disproportionate for the purposes of our club. It does not require any further discussion.

This club is designed to promote fair play and potentially set a standard for any future tournaments. Whether you play for fun or play competitively, it's still bringing enjoyment to you. I don't think this debate is even necessary here.

What I actually wanted to test is how deadly a 50b build is in this environment since it still hasn't been used in the club. It is already known and tested that innate imbalance in the game cannot easily be accounted for like the saw weapons dealing relatively high damage with combo potential. I suspect the numbers for Evelyn are accurate, but I'd like to see relative values for chikage and whether one particularly deadly combo is possible. I would rather not share it until I have tested it because it is probably ban-worthy and may be potentially game-breaking. Further deterioration of pvp in the general populace is unnecessary and unwanted
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby DidoRumbus » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:45 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:that is the entire purpose of a dueling society, to regulate fair trials between players to see who is most skillful and outplays the other, how much enjoyment i derive from that experience is entirely external to the purpose of the trial.

The "trial" may have a purpose, but each participant also has his or her own individual purpose in taking part. Club's purpose is to promote fair play, your purpose is to assess skill relative to others, my purpose is to enjoy playing. These purposes do not need to align in order to have each participant succeed in achieving their purpose. If we have a match, as long as we both play according to the agreed upon ruleset (whatever that may be), then nothing is stopping you from achieving your purpose. Would you argue that somehow the way that I think will affect what you get out of a fight?

Magicisoverrated wrote:If you only play for enjoyment, and also adhere to the rules then no harm no foul whatsoever, i'm happy for you, but it's kind of a short sighted way to approach this and it doesn't solve anything and it adds a double edged quality to your argument.

Now we're talking! My outlook is not short sighted, I am very aware of the implications of allowing clawmark, cannon, evelyn, gems, etc. on "fair and competitive duels". But of course my outlook is self serving and my opinions are subjective. I would like to see 1 gem for example because I will have more fun with build diversity, but I also know that it won't make duels less competitive. Same with limited heals. I really want to see cannon and evelyn allowed, though I'm not quite sure about the impact on competitive play, so I think they should be evaluated. And I'm indifferent to clawmark, but I realize that it will ruin competitive play in this club, so I don't push the point.

Magicisoverrated wrote:clawmark/numbers

You're misunderstanding my point about clawmark/numbers, and that's my fault, it was a mistake to smash that all together into one hastily written paragraph and expect you not to pick it apart. Very simply, I'm interested in the actual damage numbers, but I'm not saying that they need to be produced to justify the ban (we all agree on the approximate range, and agree that it's too high for this venue). As astri says below the clawmark issue is long past, I see no reason to continue an argument for which noone is on the opposing side.

Astrichthyes wrote:Whether you play for fun or play competitively, it's still bringing enjoyment to you. I don't think this debate is even necessary here.

I agree, sry for getting sucked into it, I'll try to leave it at this. Magic lets continue the discussion online, pm between duels :)

Astrichthyes wrote:What I actually wanted to test is how deadly a 50b build is in this environment since it still hasn't been used in the club.

Yeah agreed. I could level BT to 50 (SL 140 or so) just to get an idea of evelyn and chikage damage, but it would be better to get a series of fights in with a 25 SKL / 50 BT build since that way you get an idea of 1H chikage.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:51 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:Whether you play for fun or play competitively, it's still bringing enjoyment to you. I don't think this debate is even necessary here.


DidoRumbus wrote:I agree, sry for getting sucked into it, I'll try to leave it at this. Magic lets continue the discussion online, pm between duels :)



The point of this club is for establishing a system for fair play.That goes against what a game is fundamentally at it's core, because it will prevent people from doing things they consider fun, but it's important to understand that it's necessary for a healthy community founded on a fair play system. Dido, our only disagreement was that you stated you don't care about competition, and that you wanted to quantify clawmarks, as long as you follow the rules agreed upon, that's great, there's no more to say about it, but to quantify clawmarks was not necessary- however i see what you are getting at from a scientific standpoint - it just wasn't needed, and i think you see that. That sums it up nicely, i would prefer to continue any relevant discussion here, PMs are a different form of communication that is more readily engaging, this is better for the purposes of laying out arguments and engaging opposing viewpoints and we both came to an agreement in the end, this is what a forum is for in the first place and why we talk here instead of PMs, because the argumentation style there is less formal, i know you've seen for yourself i talk much differently in PMs than i do here.

As for 50BT, even if it was OP, should we ban a STAT? i think thats ultimately pointless because it's a problem with the game, not the stat itself, it's something we will just have to learn to play around and the player using BT will either care that it's overpowered in the current meta or he/she wont, it's one thing i believe we should definitely not ban. NR and DSS are good examples, both somewhat fundamentally broken in Demon's Souls, but there was a clear line between using them skillfully and using them as crutches. Gluing your L1 button the entire match was akin to trolling and combining the two to only fish for ohko backstabs was probably one of the worst, most broken playstyles in the games history (it was banned from most tournaments for good reason), but they were never outright banned from casual fair play, it was encouraged that players learned to use the weapons skilfully, but even if they didnt, oh well. I think that's the only real stance we can take with BTbuilds, because unlike item consumption and buffs it simply cannot be regulated in that way, same reason banning canon is pointless. Nothing stops a player from simply not playing against someone they feel is edging out in unfair advantages in this setting after all, and BT is such an ingrained tactic and offensive stat in this game, its better to learn to just play against it when it pops up.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:46 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:The point of this club is for establishing a system for fair play.That goes against what a game is fundamentally at it's core, because it will prevent people from doing things they consider fun, but it's important to understand that it's necessary for a healthy community founded on a fair play system. Dido, our only disagreement was that you stated you don't care about competition, and that you wanted to quantify clawmarks, as long as you follow the rules agreed upon, that's great, there's no more to say about it, but to quantify clawmarks was not necessary- however i see what you are getting at from a scientific standpoint - it just wasn't needed, and i think you see that. That sums it up nicely, i would prefer to continue any relevant discussion here, PMs are a different form of communication that is more readily engaging, this is better for the purposes of laying out arguments and engaging opposing viewpoints and we both came to an agreement in the end, this is what a forum is for in the first place and why we talk here instead of PMs, because the argumentation style there is less formal, i know you've seen for yourself i talk much differently in PMs than i do here.

As for 50BT, even if it was OP, should we ban a STAT? i think thats ultimately pointless because it's a problem with the game, not the stat itself, it's something we will just have to learn to play around and the player using BT will either care that it's overpowered in the current meta or he/she wont, it's one thing i believe we should definitely not ban. NR and DSS are good examples, both somewhat fundamentally broken in Demon's Souls, but there was a clear line between using them skillfully and using them as crutches. Gluing your L1 button the entire match was akin to trolling and combining the two to only fish for ohko backstabs was probably one of the worst, most broken playstyles in the games history (it was banned from most tournaments for good reason), but they were never outright banned from casual fair play, it was encouraged that players learned to use the weapons skilfully, but even if they didnt, oh well. I think that's the only real stance we can take with BTbuilds, because unlike item consumption and buffs it simply cannot be regulated in that way, same reason banning canon is pointless. Nothing stops a player from simply not playing against someone they feel is edging out in unfair advantages in this setting after all, and BT is such an ingrained tactic and offensive stat in this game, its better to learn to just play against it when it pops up.

My point was that, while I encourage you to have philosophical discussion - and I, myself, enjoy it - I don't believe it was on-topic or of particular significance to the thread. It's primarily to discuss balance for the club and potentially improve it. Otherwise, I'd say have it out and come to an agreement, which it seems you have.

On the subject of bloodtinge, I wouldn't want to ban it. I think it's a build like any other and requires a very specific playstyle. What I wanted to investigate is how far tinge can go in breaking the game via a combo that I know would lead to certain death if used. It's not Reiter-cannon either, which I think is worthy of a ban itself. The purpose of this test would be to determine whether the SL of the club may become problematic due to sheer damage output potential for a particular setup
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Jumilaattori » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:38 pm

Dido, we can coop but I´m having a hard time doing chalices. I think it was wednesday, I had an hour, continued to layer2 and cleared it in 20 min or so and was bored and quit.

I got time to play sat/sun night if nothing comes up. Do I want to do boring same old chalices to join a club full of rules and regulations or blooming dks2 PvP with dozens of fight clubs, with grand versatility and diversity, with combos and mad setups and solid players with fast loading screens and nonstop action that is busy as a bee. With Mary its dks2 no doubt.

That being said, Cannon fight sounds brilliant. I suggest lowbie dungeon and that we play with 1 gem and no gems and with different weapons and see how it goes, we BIG noobs that are non competitive :D

Ast, what about a build with no skill, how much does riposte do dmg? I think pretty pathetic without clawmark. Maybe allow 1 clawmark rune not stacked. With a build like that its hard/ almost pointless to punish host healing.

If I think arcane and what you said, arcane has tools + canisters. So putting fire/bolt gem to weapon to make 1 build more diverse for melee dmg while others less diverse doesen´t sound right.

Also with 0 gems lots of your concerns and "issues" go away and there´s no need for healing or it can still be 2/3 or whatnot.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:27 am

Jumilaattori wrote:Dido, we can coop but I´m having a hard time doing chalices. I think it was wednesday, I had an hour, continued to layer2 and cleared it in 20 min or so and was bored and quit.

I got time to play sat/sun night if nothing comes up. Do I want to do boring same old chalices to join a club full of rules and regulations or blooming dks2 PvP with dozens of fight clubs, with grand versatility and diversity, with combos and mad setups and solid players with fast loading screens and nonstop action that is busy as a bee. With Mary its dks2 no doubt.

That being said, Cannon fight sounds brilliant. I suggest lowbie dungeon and that we play with 1 gem and no gems and with different weapons and see how it goes, we BIG noobs that are non competitive :D

Ast, what about a build with no skill, how much does riposte do dmg? I think pretty pathetic without clawmark. Maybe allow 1 clawmark rune not stacked. With a build like that its hard/ almost pointless to punish host healing.

If I think arcane and what you said, arcane has tools + canisters. So putting fire/bolt gem to weapon to make 1 build more diverse for melee dmg while others less diverse doesen´t sound right.

Also with 0 gems lots of your concerns and "issues" go away and there´s no need for healing or it can still be 2/3 or whatnot.

Jumi, play DkS2 if you feel that way. No need to comment here with your praise and worship of another game. Personally, I find it inappropriate and even condescending. The purpose of this thread is to balance and potentially recruit new players for the club.

I'll explain this one last time and if you don't get it, I'll assume it's trolling. 1 gem allows an arcane build to use more than the only two true arcane weapons. It's not a matter of changing damage type because that is just a facet of the build. The purpose is that an arcane build can use the arcane scaling on an otherwise purely physical weapon. No gems does not allow this. No gems tightens the range of damage values for all weapons, so the larger weapons deal barely more damage than the medium weapons and so on. It also further promotes the use of BT builds because gun damage will rival the damage of even larger weapons. It's out of the question entirely and does not require further discussion.
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby BertoSan » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:27 pm

Note from "BertoSan"
 If you do not want to contribute to this fight club as the original poster has outlined DO NOT POST HERE

You want to make a fight club with your own rules? Then go start one on your own. By continuing to push the same points and changes that the host of the club has already decided not to pursue, you are derailing and causing the thread to go off topic.

Yes Jumi, I'm looking at you. Do not post in this thread anymore if you are going to make any more suggestions that steer the club towards what rules you want. Go start your own fight club if you are going to do that.
 
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:33 pm

We had some nice sessions last night with 2 new players on top of some of our regulars. I'm hoping we get more players soon so we can have at least two hosts for more phantom vs phantom duels.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Astrichthyes
 
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Jumilaattori » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:52 pm

I´m sorry if you took that as trolling, it wasn´t my intent. I just hoped a bit more tolerant and more thoughtful pov from you Ast, than just saying if you are serious about PvP you have depth5 dungeon and max tier gem.

I for 1 don´t have but I think, I could give a good fight vs any player and host fights but I can´t join. Sorry if this offended or was wrong to say.

I wish all the best to this club, hf and enjoy.
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Jumilaattori
 
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Astrichthyes » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:44 pm

Jumi, I have been tolerant. That's what you don't understand. I've explained the rules to you, both thoroughly and more than once. They have been explained to you by Dido, Magic, and I for you alone, and yet you pursue the same topics after expressing understanding of them here:

Jumilaattori wrote: I accept 1 gem and arcane now that you and Dido explained it so well, that´ s all I wanted to hear.


And then you promote DkS2 on a Bloodborne FC thread as if that's perfectly acceptable! That is trolling, whether you intend on it or not.

Jumilaattori wrote:I´m sorry if you took that as trolling, it wasn´t my intent. I just hoped a bit more tolerant and more thoughtful pov from you Ast, than just saying if you are serious about PvP you have depth5 dungeon and max tier gem.


You say you are sorry, and then you try to turn it around on me by making it seem like I am being mean to you when you, yourself, are instigating. I am offended and cannot accept your insincere apology. :evil:

So far, it has been a balanced system. Before you critique it any further or offer any suggestions, try it because it is a vastly different meta than random pvp or hizzngr3 and every rule has its purpose.
Join me or face the wrath of babies.

Demon's Souls: SL 125 Pushed ToB Mage, Spellgaxe, Mak-faith, DBS Mage; lost my saves a while back, so this is all I have
Dark Souls: Sold it. Had SL 125 PGS-fth, Pure Mage, and Murak-pyro
Dark Souls 2: SL300 str-fth; SL 150 str. Completely bored of this game, ready to sell it
Bloodborne: SL 100 Pure Str Logwheel, SL 100 Str-Arc split Logwheel, SL100 Pure Arcane Logwheel
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Astrichthyes
 
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Re: Astri's Bloodborne Fight Club

Postby Jumilaattori » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:01 pm

I understand your rules, though, every build has that 2 melee weapons in bb. I´ve stated that you can play however you want and make what ever rules you want. I gave opinions based since des casual play to tournies to bb fighting with mid tier gems and runes.

In the OP it says " all discussion is welcomed" I misunderstood that. This is my last post to this thread. I´m really sorry for posting at all. Hf,Gl and for the 3rd time all the best to this club.
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