The Pure Souls Fight Club

[Juli]

-SL100-120; I want to make it SL 100/110 cap, but i'd like to hear some opinions on this.
-A torch and/or lantern must be active on both fighters at all times unless both agree to fight in the dark. I chose the Abyss for the sheer volume of unobstructed fighting space and high contrast to make spells, buffed weapons, molotovs, and torches stand out.
-Lead Elixir is banned. Weapons like 2h Chikage do not stun against it and are too powerful with it in use.
-Blue Elixir is banned. No stealth
-Bone marrow ash is banned.
-Firearms are not to be spammed or used exessively.
-Blood vial limit is 2 for host and 3 for phantoms.
-One gem is allowed per weapon.
-No Clawmarks runes. OHKO viscerals are not cool.

You asked for my opinion, so here it is:

Fighting in Mensis Abyss seems pointlessly cumbersome. It's late in the game, and requiring weird additional rules like always having a lantern or torch is bad. Maybe it would be worth it if there was a big pay-off, but I don't think there is. Having too large of an area allows for run-away strategies, which IMO are really bad to encourage. If I have a giant space to work with, what's stopping me from carrying a back up health regen weapon and just running away until I get a bunch of health back? You want a limited amount of space so that people who use run-away strategies have to actually put effort into getting away. Also the abyss can mess with depth perception. Personally, I look at the distance between two players' feet to measure distance, and doing that is hard with no floor texture.

Anti-spamming rules are bad. It is not clear what spam or excessive use is. One-gem rule will affect balance, but maybe not in undesirable ways. Arcane Tools will deal more damage relative to weapons, for example. Also it's obviously unenforceable, but I guess you'll just be relying on the honor system.

When it comes to health on host vs. invader, IMO by far the simplest and best way to do it is just 0 heals, host uses blood bullets. This is 100% fair, and do you really need healing when you're limited to 1 gem? Damage will not be very high.

No opinion on any of the bans. IDK if they're warranted, but I haven't played much BB PvP, so I'll defer to other peoples' judgements.

For what it's worth, I don't like Bloodborne PvP very much, so I probably won't be participating regardless of the rules. Just posting this here because you asked for my opinion.

[Magicisoverrated]

Fighting in Mensis Abyss seems pointlessly cumbersome. It's late in the game, and requiring weird additional rules like always having a lantern or torch is bad.

But why? normally you would be entirely correct, if it wasn't for the simple fact that PvP in Boodborne is entirely inaccessible to anyone early in the game. In order to get a quality gem (even if its one gem) requires access to a depth 5 dungeon in the first place which is very late in the game anyway. So normally, yes but considering that PvP is inaccessible regardless this is not a deterrent.

Maybe it would be worth it if there was a big pay-off, but I don't think there is. Having too large of an area allows for run-away strategies, which IMO are really bad to encourage.

How is a big arena different from how any other PvP arena has been though? sure the others had walls but that strategy has always been viable, only even less so due to everyone having a ranged weapon in Bloodborne.

If I have a giant space to work with, what's stopping me from carrying a back up health regen weapon and just running away until I get a bunch of health back? You want a limited amount of space so that people who use run-away strategies have to actually put effort into getting away.

As far as running in Bloodborne? good luck, moment you stop to heal you're getting a hail of bullets.If they consistently do this for no reason then it's trolling and the solution is to not duel them, even if they hide behind the shield of deniable culpability then it's still not a problem, they can duel other members that may not see it as trolling, but that doesn't mean they need to interact with you and if you make them aware of that 9 times out of 10 they stop.

Anti-spamming rules are bad. It is not clear what spam or excessive use is. One-gem rule will affect balance, but maybe not in undesirable ways. Arcane Tools will deal more damage relative to weapons, for example. Also it's obviously unenforceable, but I guess you'll just be relying on the honor system.

Indeed, relying on the honor system, and controlling gun spam is pretty difficult, but there is a difference between spamming and "timing" which would be readily apparent, spamming a gun is going to be frowned upon and a waste of time in a dueling club, but it's not something that can be really controlled either, it just comes with the combat this game was packaged with and one should learn to deal with it strategically instead.

When it comes to health on host vs. invader, IMO by far the simplest and best way to do it is just 0 heals, host uses blood bullets. This is 100% fair, and do you really need healing when you're limited to 1 gem? Damage will not be very high.

Yep i completely agree here. healing promotes running away to regain advantage, but that's unavoidable when healing is allowed, no matter how big the arena. Then again, everyone has a gun to parry heals with, so i would actually argue for this arena over one with obstacles to hide behind.

[Jumilaattori]

Played with old friends last night. We tried to meet at frontier and it was impossible. We managed to meet like 5-6 times with password at central yharnam.

Rules were all goes and every random played like that too. It was fun and I had forgotten how good this game looks but the waiting times and trying to meet is harsh in bb.

Have you guys managed to meet in that abyss and how was turnout?

Also that darkness and rules like torch/darkness + running back there to ring a bell after you die also seems a waste of time.

[Astrichthyes]

Turnout was small, but I had very little time to play due to work scheduling. Torch/ lamp rule wasn't a problem because every player understood it. Of the fights I had and hosted, some were great while the players with the fully gemmed BT buildswere no more of a problem than they usually are. Lame gunspammers who feel no shame in running to heal and make bullets just because they do not possess the skill to overcome someone who is already intentionally handicapped.

The connection issues of this game run deep. It takes anywhere from ten seconds to ten minutes to summon someone, which makes any sort of coordination difficult. I'm making and testing dungeons to find a suitable arena for everyday duels because I'm really doubting the abyss as a viable location for anything but tournaments

[Tsmp]

Turnout was small, but I had very little time to play due to work scheduling. Torch/ lamp rule wasn't a problem because every player understood it. Of the fights I had and hosted, some were great while the players with the fully gemmed BT buildswere no more of a problem than they usually are. Lame gunspammers who feel no shame in running to heal and make bullets just because they do not possess the skill to overcome someone who is already intentionally handicapped.

The connection issues of this game run deep. It takes anywhere from ten seconds to ten minutes to summon someone, which makes any sort of coordination difficult. I'm making and testing dungeons to find a suitable arena for everyday duels because I'm really doubting the abyss as a viable location for anything but tournaments

Dungeons as everyday duel spots are a bit iffy now since the Short Root Ritual Chalice takes twice as long to connect compared to normal summoning. Until that gets fixed, The only way you're going to get invaders in your dungeon is if they know it exists and download it for themselves. And since hizzngr3 is currently the "designated PvP area" (in NA, at least), getting anyone other than us in there for random fights is unlikely.

Hopefully the DLC patch fixes the SRRC, because if that happens I can see dungeons exploding in activity. Especially sinister dungeons, those things are like Darkroot Forest waiting to happen.

[Magicisoverrated]

The connection issues of this game run deep. It takes anywhere from ten seconds to ten minutes to summon someone, which makes any sort of coordination difficult.

It's kind of funny how bad Bloodborne's connection is when Demon's Souls is from late 2009 and it still runs on dedicated servers, granted it was region split, but region split is preferable to this garbage and playing with players who have ping in the 800s.

And since hizzngr3 is currently the "designated PvP area" (in NA, at least), getting anyone other than us in there for random fights is unlikely.

Ast made this fight club to specifically get away from randoms and hizzngr3. Most people use dueling as an opportunity to play as they normally would anyway during an invasion, Bloodborne's PvP is so broken in the first place that this doesn't work, someone spamming 19 bloodvials during a fight and then getting a lucky gun parry in for the win is why this games PvP has lost steam within under 6 months after its release. If anything, this is a huge ++ to fightclubs not a negative.

[chefchucko]

I know everyone likes using their end game toons that they worked so hard to grind them up to level 100 with their gems and max weapons and all that. But from a PvP standpoint, it just makes for fights that end too quickly.

Some of the most fun I had invading, were my low level invasions with low grade weapons fighting against questers who had the same early game limitations.

Anyone give thought to a low level fight club? Say around level 30 or 40. +3 weapon max. Granted, this takes a lot of Arcane out of the field....and the honor system REALLY comes into question....but done among friends, could make for a lot of fun.
Damage wouldn't be crazy, so no healing should be fine. And you'd really have to think if you wanted to Vit gouge, or go high in damage, or a balance.

Just a thought, because the end game PvP in BB got real old, real fast for me.

[Tsmp]

I have a level 30 character who I limit only to depth 1 root gems and the Beast Claw. Low-level pvp or even co-op is definitely fun, yes.

An alternative limitation could be level 80 with gems only from depth 3 dungeons.

[Astrichthyes]

I do like the idea of a low level club, but I feel it's to limiting. In going from 25 to 50 arcane in PvP, my damage more than doubled on spell tools. They scale extremely well, but have low base damage. Until your weapons reach +10, arcane is very weak on them as well. I think single gem is a good balance. For example, my fire saw spear was hitting a solid 300-500 damage per hit in pvp with one 27.2% fire gem and 2 19.3% nourishing gems. With only the fire gem, my damage sits at about 100-200 per hit in pvp. That's about a 2-3hko for triple gems vs a 6-12hko, depending on my opponent's defs and hp. The only real problem I see in this whole setup is that BT builds are going to be disproportionately powerful on gunshots, but there's no way to avoid this, as it is a problem no matter what. I don't think a lower SL will solve the problem because we would open ourselves up to OHKO with the cannon since it's already very powerful without scaling.

I'm setting a sinister ihyll dungeon up and it will have a closed glyph. SRRC invaders need not be involved with this club because they will not know the glyph rules. It probably wouldn't be a problem now, but I see it hampering our efforts greatly if they fix it.

[Jumilaattori]

Dungeon is good share glyph and set up pw, maybe. Have you made a chat or some way to communicate?

I think no gems better than 1. I don´t see gunspam as a waste of time or too OP with no gems, even with gems you just need to stay close and punish with WD R1. I think cannon is fun

If you play today, lemme know I wanna join, I don´t really care what rules.

[Magicisoverrated]

Dungeon is good share glyph and set up pw, maybe. Have you made a chat or some way to communicate?

I think no gems better than 1. I don´t see gunspam as a waste of time or too OP with no gems, even with gems you just need to stay close and punish with WD R1. I think cannon is fun

If you play today, lemme know I wanna join, I don´t really care what rules.

That's cool you changed your mind, you seemed pretty adamant about not doing it before.

One gem is actually a significant boost, 27% boost to damage is a lot more than you'd think and it offers a proper balance and keeps fights from being too long. Spamming your firearm is a quick way to become disliked, but not much can be done to "regulate" it, i believe it's going to be handled on a case by case basis. As long as you don't do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0sEAvv_67U

@ast, Have you been able to test how level scaling works yet?

[DidoRumbus]

Those damage numbers for single fire gem are very reasonable IMO. Arc build also can run a few different weapons (fire/bolt/arc) and switch weapon per opponent armour. 1 Gem also eliminates stacking flat ARC gems. Jumi right about no gems and BT though - take away that 31% and gun damage is not so bad. The other way is to say no "damage" gems on guns, basically give everyone 5 HP passive regen with gun out (vs no regen with shield out).

Hope to catch some fights this weekend!

[Jumilaattori]

My greatest gem is 22% my lowest is 18%, my runes are mid tier. I don´t care if the opponent has everything maxed and spams 20 vials and spams gun and spams R1.

If you keep close and opponent spams gun you can punish with WDR1, opponent takes dmg, you got momentum and you don´t take dmg, rince and repeat? Gg.

1 gem can be 15% vs 27% therefore not fair and shorter fights if no healing. No gems is as equal as it gets without no need to set up rules other than maybe no healing/1-2 vials.

I got Q build and I use cannon, hit vs an open foe may deal 900 dmg, balanced? easy to land?, how about trading with bloodtinge with 0 gems?

[Astrichthyes]

Those damage numbers for single fire gem are very reasonable IMO. Arc build also can run a few different weapons (fire/bolt/arc) and switch weapon per opponent armour. 1 Gem also eliminates stacking flat ARC gems. Jumi right about no gems and BT though - take away that 31% and gun damage is not so bad. The other way is to say no "damage" gems on guns, basically give everyone 5 HP passive regen with gun out (vs no regen with shield out).

Hope to catch some fights this weekend!

That would actually be very good. If everyone had a regen gem, guns would be reasonable in damage and there would be no gem advantage on guns, bringing the arcane firearms more into line with the standard BT guns since the former rarely see use.

I'm looking forward to this fight club officially meeting. I went through perhaps 15 glyphs last night in search of that perfect arena, but it's rare. I'll post the glyph as soon as I make it and update the OP with all of the information on fight club regulationand any suggestions or changes that I have.

[Magicisoverrated]

My greatest gem is 22% my lowest is 18%, my runes are mid tier. I don´t care if the opponent has everything maxed and spams 20 vials and spams gun and spams R1.?

Would you like some assistance farming gems? Having a good set of gems is pretty mandatory.

[Astrichthyes]

@Magic: I have not tested it. My understanding of it is that level limitations are lifted when you use a password and they use some sort of modifier to equalize players if there is a large level discrepancy, but I have not been able to test how this works exactly

My greatest gem is 22% my lowest is 18%, my runes are mid tier. I don´t care if the opponent has everything maxed and spams 20 vials and spams gun and spams R1.

If you keep close and opponent spams gun you can punish with WDR1, opponent takes dmg, you got momentum and you don´t take dmg, rince and repeat? Gg.

1 gem can be 15% vs 27% therefore not fair and shorter fights if no healing. No gems is as equal as it gets without no need to set up rules other than maybe no healing/1-2 vials.

I got Q build and I use cannon, hit vs an open foe may deal 900 dmg, balanced? easy to land?, how about trading with bloodtinge with 0 gems?

27.2% gems are easy to get. My merciless watchers drop list thread has plenty of glyphs to choose from that are easy to farm. It would probably take less than ten tries to get a perfect tempering gem. If you need help retrieving a gem, I'd be happy to help, as I've probably farmed the fatties over 500 times and can do it in my sleep.

I wouldn't be terribly worried about your gems because they aren't stacking with anything. Triple 27.2% tempering multiplies AR by about 2.08 while triple 32.6% blunt multiplies AR by about 2.33. But take it down to one gem and those multipliers are 1.272 vs 1.326, which is only 5.4% of your base weapon and scaling numbers. At 300AR, that's only about 16-17 AR, which will amount to about 10 damage difference on most hits.

Healing is going to be 2 vials for the host, should they decide to fight, and 3 for phantoms. This is a fair amount to account for the gem everyone gets.

Cannon is the one thing we cannot control without banning it.

[DidoRumbus]

My goto glyphs are PWMF22GU (pthumeru, radials) and 5PWUJSCD (isz, triangles), super easy and fast to farm watchers. Plus the isz one gets you a brainsucker drop and the pthumeru one gets you frequent +5 regen circle gems from the mage bro. Even managed to get myself a +5 regen waning, I wonder if radial is possible? Haven't gotten to farming amy tho, cursed amy pisses me off haha.

Anyway with 1 gem restriction I suspect that the best gem (for dex weapons at least) is actually +21% +20 flat physical. These are rank 16-17 radials that drop from commons in pthumeru iirc. So if you're running +21% then max 20 AR difference. No big deal

[Astrichthyes]

My goto glyphs are PWMF22GU (pthumeru, radials) and 5PWUJSCD (isz, triangles), super easy and fast to farm watchers. Plus the isz one gets you a brainsucker drop and the pthumeru one gets you frequent +5 regen circle gems from the mage bro. Even managed to get myself a +5 regen waning, I wonder if radial is possible? Haven't gotten to farming amy tho, cursed amy pisses me off haha.

Anyway with 1 gem restriction I suspect that the best gem (for dex weapons at least) is actually +21% +20 flat physical. These are rank 16-17 radials that drop from commons in pthumeru iirc. So if you're running +21% then max 20 AR difference. No big deal

Dido, farming Amy isn't much better than farming the gargoyle in layer 2 of pwmf. They drop a 19.3% nourishing with finestrike, striking, radiant, and odd tempering as possible secondary effects. I've found them to be potentially better than those dropped by Amy despite the lower percentage on the main effect. Much faster, much easier, no save scumming involved

[Jumilaattori]

Would you like some assistance farming gems? Having a good set of gems is pretty mandatory.

Thank you for the offer but no thank you. You missed my point.

Dido and Ast, thx but I haven´t done a lot of chalices. Valk gave me codes to all runes and physical gems but I couldn´t enter any of those dungeons. As Ast gave numbers its allright, not much difference with 1 gem.

By the gods Ast, don´t ban cannon!

[Astrichthyes]

I didn't intend to ban the cannon. If someone wants to use the cannon and run out of bullets in 2-3 shots, they can, but i don't think they should expect to restock after using up their bullets in 1 or 2 fights. It's meant for strategic use, not to abuse as a gimmicky win strategy.

The only time a 5% difference in gem quality will really make a worthwhile difference is if your weapon has good attack modifiers and multiplies that additional AR with relatively good damage efficiency. The difference between a tempering and blunt gem on a kirk charged r2 will be 48 effective AR versus the 21AR you get on basic hammer attacks, which will be about 25-35 damage difference. Not that big a deal, so your standard 18% gems from the main game aren't going to be at a significant disadvantage relative to the 27.2% gems, even more so the smaller your weapon's effective AR is.

[Jumilaattori]

It´s not and I for1 don´t mind but isn´t no gems more fair and balanced esp. if you consider all the guidelines?

[Astrichthyes]

It´s not and I for1 don´t mind but isn´t no gems more fair and balanced esp. if you consider all the guidelines?

No gems means no versatility for arcane, which is what that build-type does best. I don't think it's fair to cripple a build like that. The damage increase from a single gem is not significant enough to justify banning it. The guidelines fit around this one simple rule to help create balance. Making a case against gems because of the differences between their quality is not without drawbacks and is even counterintuitive since you have to get to a depth 5 dungeon to participate in the club anyway.

Updated the OP with the glyph, a restructuring of the rules list, and some suggestions on my behalf to promote a friendly environment.

The first sessions I had on there were great. Not a single bad fight and everything felt balanced. My time in the dungeon was cut short, but I'll be on again tonight to keep the ball rolling.

[DidoRumbus]

Got a few fights in this weekend, found the damage and pace to be very good with 1 gem. I also like 2/3 heals over no heals. With no heals you end up with this inevitable change in pace once your HP drops below 50%... you just revert to passive play since you can't afford to trade. With limited heals though you end up with a fight where the pace is being controlled by the HP leader, and the role of HP leader is constantly being exchanged. But because of the limitation, the fights don't drag on like they can in random invasions, eventually it's going to come down to the wire. Healing does not feel either "cheap" (like divine blessings in DkS1) or stupidly easy to punish (like estus in DkS1). Each heal is only 40%, limited to 2/3 per fight, and it is possible to discourage or punish with aggression and stamina management, since the arena is restricted in size and there is nowhere to hide.

So yeah, my 2 cents on healing

[Jumilaattori]

No gems means no versatility for arcane, which is what that build-type does best. I don't think it's fair to cripple a build like that.

Do explain where the versatility vanishes when the play field is even and how does 1 gem make arcane more versatile?

But you think its fair to cripple a build like blood by banning marrow and dps gem on guns..

Less versatility.

Also no clawmark runes? How can there be 1 shots with no gems or with 1 gem. Again less versatility.

Making a case against gems because of the differences between their quality is not without drawbacks and is even counterintuitive since you have to get to a depth 5 dungeon to participate in the club anyway.

It would be more fair with no gems at all and that´s just 1 point, there´s easily 3-4 other good reasons to go no gems at all. Why depth5? Do you want to make it as hard as possible to join?

[Magicisoverrated]

Do explain where the versatility vanishes when the play field is even and how does 1 gem make arcane more versatile?

But you think its fair to cripple a build like blood by banning marrow and dps gem on guns..

Less versatility.

Also no clawmark runes? How can there be 1 shots with no gems or with 1 gem. Again less versatility.

1 gem makes arcane more versatile because it gives it more competitive options.

Blood is far from crippled, it's still the most powerful build in terms of damage and possibly even moveset even with these restrictions.

Clawmark makes PvP broken, whats versatile about spamming gun into 1ohko?

It would be more fair with no gems at all and that´s just 1 point, there´s easily 3-4 other good reasons to go no gems at all. Why depth5? Do you want to make it as hard as possible to join?

You need depth (5) to get good gems in the first place. No gems also interferes with longevity of fights and enhances pre-existing imbalance between the games weapon choices. at a 27% boost all weapons have a shot at being competitive, it also allows customization. It's also the fact that, PvP is inaccessible to begin with, the point was to pull away from hizzngr3, not create a new one.

But what are the possible reasons for not having gems instead of allowing one? , besides saying it would be fair, because it's actually not in practice.

[DidoRumbus]

No gems means no versatility for arcane, which is what that build-type does best. I don't think it's fair to cripple a build like that.

Do explain where the versatility vanishes when the play field is even and how does 1 gem make arcane more versatile?

1 gem does not make arcane versatile, it makes arcane viable. Arcane (with at least 1 gem allowed) just happens to be a versatile build.

But you think its fair to cripple a build like blood by banning marrow and dps gem on guns..

Less versatility.

Also no clawmark runes? How can there be 1 shots with no gems or with 1 gem. Again less versatility.

My skill/bld was not crippled without ash, and I suspect that a 50 BT evelyn or shotgun would still be very good. BT build is a 1-trick pony anyway (2H chikage plus gun).

Skill build still has very damaging viscerals with 1 gem, I suspect that clawmark would approach 1HKO territory but I do not have the numbers to back that up. I am indifferent to this rule.

I also feel that depth 5 is limiting, since with 1 gem even the 19% from mensis is enough to play. The chalice grind is not for everyone. I only have 1 that can join, maybe 2 I can't remember haha.

[Magicisoverrated]

My skill/bld was not crippled without ash, and I suspect that a 50 BT evelyn or shotgun would still be very good. BT build is a 1-trick pony anyway (2H chikage plus gun).

I'd like to throw out that one trick pony doesn't really mean a whole lot in Bloodborne, considering how the PvP works the chikage may be predictable but that doesn't ever mean it's not deadly.

Skill build still has very damaging viscerals with 1 gem, I suspect that clawmark would approach 1HKO territory but I do not have the numbers to back that up. I am indifferent to this rule.

Without clawmark? maybe it wont ohko, but with clawmark? it most certainly should ohko.

I also feel that depth 5 is limiting, since with 1 gem even the 19% from mensis is enough to play. The chalice grind is not for everyone. I only have 1 that can join, maybe 2 I can't remember haha.

It's really not a big deal, most established PvP areas have always been fairly late game and PvP has always required a bit of farming to achieve competitive status in (unless you used megamule) all things considered getting to a depth 5 dungeon is not very hard, and a 19% gem is enough if you don't want to grind out a 27% one but it's no different than playing with a +9 weapon over a +10

[Jumilaattori]

1 gem does not make arcane versatile, it makes arcane viable. Arcane (with at least 1 gem allowed) just happens to be a versatile build.

Its same to all. 1 gem makes arcane do more dmg yes? So if its a slow clumsy weapon vs a fast weapon.. slow weapon has better chances, is that it?

My skill/bld was not crippled without ash, and I suspect that a 50 BT evelyn or shotgun would still be very good. BT build is a 1-trick pony anyway (2H chikage plus gun).

Silver sword outspaces katana period

A bullet without blood does no dmg, with these rules what is the dmg of 50 blood bullet?

Cannon will hit 900 dmg vs an open foe, phantom v phantom and its like 2 r1 + cannon to K.O

Skill build still has very damaging viscerals with 1 gem, I suspect that clawmark would approach 1HKO territory but I do not have the numbers to back that up. I am indifferent to this rule.

Same but I´d roughly estimate that skill build would do around 600-800 dmg with all visc runes which would be a sacrifice to HP,stamina,mitigation + you would need 45+ skill

That is play style, that is diversity, that is versatility. That is a build choise.

So I´d equip 2x life /stamina and 7% all mitigation and do 2 r1 with silver sword and wait for a counter hit with cannon.

[Magicisoverrated]

Same but I´d roughly estimate that skill build would do around 600-800 dmg with all visc runes which would be a sacrifice to HP,stamina,mitigation + you would need 45+ skill

That is play style, that is diversity, that is versatility. That is a build choise.

So I´d equip 2x life /stamina and 7% all mitigation and do 2 r1 with silver sword and wait for a counter hit with cannon.

Sure it's playstyle, and its also build choice, but it is not positive diversity, and it doesn't help the community when such things are allowed. HP and stamina mitigation are not real punishments in the face of being able to OHKO your opponent, it effectively neutralizes the drawback. Just because allowing something brings a new build option or playstyle to the group does not actually mean it's helpful whatsoever.

Guns are being limited because of their ability to spam into an OHKO, not because of their damage potential, also BT is deadly enough with Chikage to straight up trade with weapons that might have spacing ability and win, which is also why gems are being limited. Canon is a weapon you use for the laughs, to bring it into a serious competitive atmosphere is missing the point entirely.

[Jumilaattori]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM-hWhB1QNU

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