On the subject of organizing PvP...

Talk about the various online aspects of Bloodborne. Including Co-Op and PvP.

On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:35 am

So the hard part of organizing PvP in the open world is the chance of random invaders not restricted by passwords.

Why not PvP in a Chalice Dungeon then?
Share a dungeon that's easy to clear and has a suitable arena, exchange glyphs, have at thee.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby CptCosmic » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:10 am

competetive pvp does not really work well cause invaders and phantoms have 30% less hp.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby chefchucko » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:32 am

There was an HP difference in Demons souls too. That didn't stop anyone.
Just have a host that lets others duel.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby DidoRumbus » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:12 pm

Vumsy that actually sounds good, I didn't even know we can invade chalices! Makes sense, there are chime maidens... Are you sure that invaders need to have the glyph? Or would they just need to enter a dungeon with the same ritual and the game will randomly select a world to put them in? Probably not I guess, if they are roots they'd need the glyph first to generate the map...

chefchucko wrote:There was an HP difference in Demons souls too. That didn't stop anyone.
Just have a host that lets others duel.

Exactly, just need to sort out covenants and host can summon specific (password/glyph) phantoms for duels.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Juli » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:33 pm

chefchucko wrote:There was an HP difference in Demons souls too. That didn't stop anyone.
Just have a host that lets others duel.

In Demon's Souls, black phantoms have 30% health reduction, but deal 40% more damage than hosts. Which evens out to be almost completely equal (hosts had access to ring slots, BP needed cling/foe to break even with a ringless host). And good hosts would just take off their rings for a completely fair duel.

I don't know if I'll bother with duels at all if the only way to have a remotely fair fight is phantom vs. phantom. In all previous games, you could just invade or drop a red sign in a PvP hotspot and get fair fights, easy-peasy. Fight clubbing was nice, but not a necessity outside of tournaments. Really inconvenient to have to organize with friends every time you want to duel, so I will only do it if the PvP is phenomenal.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:21 am

DidoRumbus wrote:... Are you sure that invaders need to have the glyph? Or would they just need to enter a dungeon with the same ritual and the game will randomly select a world to put them in? Probably not I guess, if they are roots they'd need the glyph first to generate the map...

As far as I know, you need to get the Short Root Chalice from Lower Hintertomb. Anyway, yes you should be able to host in chalice dungeons, I'm just testing and trying to figure out how to do so 100% without fault.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:11 pm

I have been wondering how we would do this as well. I think the best route will be to have a designated area and password. I'm thinking the universal password should be something such as "wikidot" or "pvp". With regard to area, I cannot offer any suggestions besides the only one I know would work and be easy to get to: the courtyard in central yarnham with the 2 brick-fisted brutes. To be more specific, it is through the shortcut gate to the left of the CY lamp and down the stairs.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Kokurokoki » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:36 am

I've found a solution to the PvP health issue, and that is blood bullets.

It seems that blood bullets take a certain percentage of health rather than a set amount. I noticed this when I was summoned as a co-op partner and pulled out some blood bullets so that I could use Hunter's Bone without depleting my hard supply. The amount of health I lost was relative to my max health, or so it seemed, as I lost more health when I was soloing and had a larger vitality pool.

It looks like Blood Bullets take about 30-40% of your health off to use. This would help to even out the health disparity between players, since both players would start off at less than 30% health.

For those of you who don't know, tap "UP" on your D-pad and your character will pull out 5 extra bullets (denoted by a red number).

So, for "Honorable" duels, pull out blood bullets and just shoot off five shots randomly, then both players will be able to fight on even grounds.

Now, all we have to do is figure out what max level is ideal for PvP. I've heard people wanting to do 120, but I think 120 is a little bit high. People seem to be settling on 80-100 range as it allows you to make a viable build while still having to make some sacrifices.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Juli » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:07 am

Host will still have higher max health than invader, and will heal it back when using blood vials. I guess you could play with no healing, but that is really sad. For me, "healing that isn't completely busted" was a big draw of the PvP.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby eklad » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:26 am

There has already been a PVP chalice dungeon set up by some people at reddit - I have been getting semi-regular duels, they do work but matchmaking can still be slow, the code for the chalice dungeon is hizzngr3.

As for the health advantage....who cares, if there are ever tournaments it would be phantom vs phantom but apart from that coming from someone who invades and doesnt host, I dont mind - sure the host has an advantage, especially in a healing fight but just work around it, victories will be that much sweeter
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Kokurokoki » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:03 pm

Juli wrote:Host will still have higher max health than invader, and will heal it back when using blood vials. I guess you could play with no healing, but that is really sad. For me, "healing that isn't completely busted" was a big draw of the PvP.


Unless you're playing with randoms, it makes no sense at all to heal in a duel, especially for Bloodborne where healing is very quick and spammable. Healing in a duel means that you've essentially been outplayed by your opponent, and does nothing more than to prolong the fight into a contest of who can deplete the other person's vials first. Add in the fact that vials heal a percentage of health rather than a set amount, and gouging vitality will pretty much dominate every duel no matter what you build since you can just outheal your opponent every time.

At least that's how I see it. I came from Dark Souls II PvP where we didn't heal during duels since it was considered very unsportsmanlike. I didn't agree with healing back then, and I don't agree with it now.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby bialy0021 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:43 pm

dks crowd never understood why healing was restricted in ds. even on eu ds where normal fights were no grass duels it wasnt cos of 'honour'.

game is young, pvp isnt very competitive atm and it will prolly never be. why you wanna mess with it already? vials are fine.

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you just dont get it.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby eklad » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:38 pm

I am another one that thinks there should be healing duels, it brings a different dynamic to the fight and adds variety - which imo is the biggest possible weakness of the game so far. I do think that once the PVP hotspots are picked that there should be a place for more laid back no healing duels and another one where is more FTW and healing with all vials allowed. That way people can play however they like - healing is limited (as far as we know) and can be punished and interrupted, please I think it demands a different build, for example 20 - 25 endurance may be enough for a no healing duel but I would want a full stamina bar if we are healing so I can chase you down.

Bullets become so much more important, in no healing they can be spammed a bit in hope of a parry, in a healing fight they are instrumental in stopping heals, you would be less likely to spam when you know you may need them to interrupt or parry a heal.

Weapons like the cane's whip mode become a really good option, combination of moderate speed, range and combo ability make it a good weapon to chase people down with - in a no healing fight cane imo is not that great, normal mode is outclassed by Ludwig/kirk 1 handed mode and the whip while good imo is one of the easiest to parry.

There's probably more but that's all I can think of right now.

TL DR: there's space in the game for healing and no healing duels, why not have both - more variety.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Cam » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:40 pm

From what I've seen, healing is really easy to predict and interrupt, and it looks fairly reliable to parry. People who are low on HP will roll away and heal. This teaches you to be aggressive, read your opponent and play better.

If a player can get a heal off despite you being good at predicting them, it just means they can play smart under pressure and have mixups. It means they're good.

EDIT:
As such, just think of the blood vials as an extended HP bar. With how fast-paced the PvP is, I don't really see what's wrong with healing. If you let players get away with a bunch of heals, you just need to get better at timing and reading. Complaining that the mechanics in place are forcing you to get better and extend duel time doesn't make a modicum of sense to me.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Jumilaattori » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:59 am

^Reported. Please, don´t derail with your opinions of healing, thanks. I for one are interested about hearing about organized PvP.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby nyyppa » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:26 am

So what do you guys think, will the organized PvP take place mainly in NG or NG+, or does it even matter in this game? I have no actual info on the subject of player connectivity between different NGs, so I want to be sure before I take any PvP chars to a second playthrough.

Also some things I know for a fact or have read about, that might be worth mentioning:

- If you kill the final boss, you can't continue on exploring the game world like you could in DkS2, that NG ends there.
- After going from NG to NG+, you will keep your chalice items and your chalice progress, so you don't have to go through them again to be able to access them, which I guess means you could go do PvP in the chalices quite fast after reaching NG+.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:18 pm

NG's doesn't matter, only SL. However I for one has experienced unreliable connectivity in chalice dungeons. Also a quick note on the use of executioner/cainhurst runes to reliably pvp... In that case a healing rule must be banned or tweaked, as one holds a clear advantage over the other and I'd prefer if that weren't the case. Basically the ideal scenario would be phantom v phantom with runes and consumable rules decided by tourney host. Other than that, 30% hp from runes phantom, no runes on host with consumable rules decided by tourney host. Then executioner vileblood host and phantom, with no healing allowed.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Cam » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:33 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:^Reported. Please, don´t derail with your opinions of healing, thanks. I for one are interested about hearing about organized PvP.

I know you're head over heels for me, but please, patience is important. You'll botch it if you get overexcited and miss your timing.

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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Jumilaattori » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:41 am

^Reported for harassment and derailing the thread the 2nd time :( Please, stay on topic, cammy, thx.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Juli » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:38 am

Note from "Juli"
 Split some off-topic posts into a new thread: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=20650 
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Astrichthyes » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:35 am

Back to the matter at hand: a chalice dungeon could work, but we need to figure out which one will work best as an arena, share the glyph code, and set a password up that we can all share.

If not a chalice dungeon, as I said before, the central yarnham courtyard with the two brick-fisted ogres would be both easy to get to and offers ample space for duels.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:56 am

Astrichthyes wrote:Back to the matter at hand: a chalice dungeon could work, but we need to figure out which one will work best as an arena, share the glyph code, and set a password up that we can all share.

If not a chalice dungeon, as I said before, the central yarnham courtyard with the two brick-fisted ogres would be both easy to get to and offers ample space for duels.


This is a great idea, why don't we try to do this and agree on rules between each other beforehand? as we find more players to agree to our standards we can invite them to our glyph club!
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:25 pm

There's still the issue on how to organize PvP summoning-wise.
Best bet would be a host with a white and a red. Equal hp, equal runes, equal everything.
Second best would be ExE host a VB summon and a neutral summon. (Suspect VB and Neutral can fight, and VB rune is shit anyway)
Other than that it's host and covenant runes phantoms, but Executioner gives better vial healing, meaning tedious rules to agree on.
Then there's a host without runes and a phantom with 30% increased hp.
But there's other issues. How to "bait" invasions by desired invaders and wether or not a VB and ExE can be summoned by the same host. HoH can fight hosts, can they fight phantom? And so forth.

I'll hear around if I can get people to test this with.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Zubroska40 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:52 pm

Hi guys.

I find really bad than we can't easily summon PvP players.

I like invade peeps but i like better fight some PvP players.

I ve ever made some PvP in chalice donjons with friends, i ve a good Pthumeru central chalice for PvP. (a great room without mobs at the beginning)

I ve a char lvl 109, the next will be level 100.

Maybe we need to host phantoms as we did in Demon's Souls, it s probably the best way to do competitive PvP on this game.

If u re interested by a PvP session in a chalice donjon, blue vs red, i m ready to host/fight the friday night, 8 H PM GMT. :)
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:28 pm

I won't be home for a few weeks, but I just came up with a hypothesis.

Hunters count as invasions when summoned. "Blood addled" requires one to invade.
If p1 (player 1) invades a random dude, he becomes "blood addled" and can summon p2 (player 2).
If this counts as a general invasion, p2 should in theory be able to summon p1 immidiatly.
The duration of the summoning process and duel should outlast the duration of p1's invasion timer.

Planning to test this with some people, I'd love it if someone else could test this in my absence though.

Also!
It's unknown if more than one hunter can be summoned. As well as wether or not winning/losing the first invasion makes a difference in becoming blood addled.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Tsmp » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:05 am

Hunter rune acts like it has other rules that haven't been figured out yet. On one of my characters with it, I once summoned someone who was immediately hostile to me and had the Vileblood title above their name, which is the complete opposite of how it's supposed to work. Unfortunately they didn't respond when I asked them about their oath rune, so I have no idea what triggered it.

As to getting desirable invaders, just use a sinister bell in an early game area. Early on in the game, chime maidens won't spawn after a successful summon but will still spawn if you use a sinister bell. This means that invading people who are just trying to clear the level is impossible, and you'd only be able to invade people who are also using a sinister bell, which means other pvpers. You can either cancel the sinister bell and keep the maiden (probably throw beckoning bell on top of that if you're using an oath rune for more potential pvp), or let it sit and try to invade someone else.
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viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:22 am

Yo, long time, no see. :)

Here's what my testing has yielded thus far:

Confirmed mechanics:
To host PvP with the beckoning bell, the host must be "Blood Addled" you become it by invading someone.
Hunter of Hunters can bypass passwords.
Passwords function the same way as coop summoning.
Neutral phantoms can also be summoned.
Neutral and Hunter phantoms will be hostile.

Unconfirmed mechanics:
Unknown if more than one hunter can be summoned and if you can still be invaded by sinister bell users.
Uncertain wether Hunter of Hunter advisary counts as summon or invasion in regards to timers.
Unknown wether winning or losing affects Blood Addled requirement.
Uncertain if Hunter of hunters fighting other Hunter of hunters meets the Blood Addled requirement.

EDIT: I might delve into other summoning mechanics at some point. Right now I'm trying to find the most effective and consistant way for successive pvp matches. Hoping for arrangements for future PvP tourneys.
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Tsmp » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:28 am

Vumsy wrote:Yo, long time, no see. :)

Here's what my testing has yielded thus far:

Confirmed mechanics:
To host PvP with the beckoning bell, the host must be "Blood Addled" you become it by invading someone.
Hunter of Hunters can bypass passwords.
Passwords function the same way as coop summoning.
Neutral phantoms can also be summoned.
Neutral and Hunter phantoms will be hostile.

Unconfirmed mechanics:
Unknown if more than one hunter can be summoned and if you can still be invaded by sinister bell users.
Uncertain wether Hunter of Hunter advisary counts as summon or invasion in regards to timers.
Unknown wether winning or losing affects Blood Addled requirement.
Uncertain if Hunter of hunters fighting other Hunter of hunters meets the Blood Addled requirement.

EDIT: I might delve into other summoning mechanics at some point. Right now I'm trying to find the most effective and consistant way for successive pvp matches. Hoping for arrangements for future PvP tourneys.


Interesting information. If it bypasses passwords, that sounds to me like it's behaving as an invasion instead of a summon. Does ExE vs VB summoning bypass passwords as well, and are ExE and/or VB rune characters also hostile to non-opposing oath runes? The account I gave doesn't seem to match up with the confirmed mechanics though, in that the person I summoned registered as Vileblood and I hadn't invaded anyone on that character.

If there is a secondary requirement to becoming Blood-Addled, probably the first thing to test would be if killing NPCs triggers it. There are an awful lot of NPCs you can kill in questline-related stuff, and some of them might not actually be sinless, as it were.

I've recently made a character specifically to use the Hunter rune, so maybe I can figure a few things out. Gonna need to remake it without killing NPCs just to see if that's a Blood-Addled flag or not, though.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: On the subject of organizing PvP...

Postby Vumsy » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:03 pm

I haven't tested this enough, but I strongly suspect the invasion (or if a trigger npc killing) must happen within the same play session.
As my test partner exited the game, he no longer met the requirements for hoh invasion.
I'll post what I find, but like I said, I'll limit myself somewhat into figuring out ways to organize pvp. Got a good feeling on host and summon alternating between two players to avoid potential timers.

EDIT: If you want to summon pvp with beckoning bell only. Set a password and don't give it to anyone else. Those you summon will be hostile one way or the other. Should it help your testings.
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