Removal of Magic and Shields

Talk about the various online aspects of Bloodborne. Including Co-Op and PvP.

Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Magicisoverrated » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:16 pm

Wow it's almost like Miyazaki was paying attention. I would like to hear opinions from people who frequent this place on this upgrade.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby DidoRumbus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Big fan so far of fighting mechanics (combining range atk with parry, VERY versatile weapons), but I've barely scratched the surface of the game and waaaay too early to consider PvP implications. As long as there will still be variety in builds and styles, I'm sure I'll be happy. Still having a blast on my first (completely blind) playthrough!
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Astrichthyes » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:11 pm

Removal of shields? Awesome. This is exactly what I wanted in a Souls game. But...

Removal of magic is quite extreme. I played a caster on DeS for the last few years and it was not only fun to play, but tough to win with in PvP if you fought someone who knew what they were doing. I don't think removal of the casting system was necessary if they figured out how to balance it. Things like OHKO GRS, WoG, and Affinity were obvious screw-ups in DkS2, which was not a thoroughly tested project because Bamco honestly didn't give a damn. They simply wanted to line their pockets with as much green as possible. DkS had similar problems with OHKO Bead and Pursuers after AotA was released, also due to a lack of testing.

That said, I think the countershot system works quite well in PvE and is not OP in my opinion because of the fact that you have a limit of 20 shots at any given time and your timing has to be even better than it had to be for parries in the previous two games. I cannot say how it will fare in PvP, but I have no doubt that the most formidable players will learn to proficiently use counterattacks and countershots to their advantage. It seems to be the most effective strategy in PvE so far, at least in my experience.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby plaintomato » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:03 pm

I love it so far. I love the new IP.

I'm really glad that Dark Souls replaced Demon's Souls but went in a brighter fantasy direction, and Bloodborne replaced Demon's Souls' darker tone but took the combat in a faster-paced direction.

My hope is that the drastically reduced presence of magic and shields (and weapon and armor variety), and the elimination of burden in BB, is going to result in a balanced skill-based PVP experience. Of course, I can't speak for the PVP yet, but I'm hoping.

Meanwhile, Dark Souls should build on what it is already. A more plodding, deliberate experience with endless variety even if that makes it impossible to perfectly balance.

It's looking like an awesome reason for From to maintain two separate and somewhat similar IP. I hope it pans out like I think it will...I'm on a spoiler black-out so I don't know what if anything is known about the BB PVP just yet. I love the campaign as much as the PVP, but it's the PVP that usually changes a Souls game from a 50-100 hour game to a 500-1000 hour game.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby BertoSan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:51 pm

My understanding is that magic hasn't been removed. It's been changed.

Later in the game there will be "infinite use" items that scale with your Arcane stat like magic would. They just aren't cast as spells..it's more like.....Alchemy which I find awesome.

There is a single shield in the game but it's useless.

I personally LOVE this character layout.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Hashmal » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:50 pm

I do not lament the passing of shields. I frequently used shield-bypassing weapons in DeS, DkS, and DkSII, just because I liked to troll turtles (Faith-based Moonlight Greatsword, how I miss you!). Now that they're gone, it's pretty much like every weapon is what I used to do.

I will reserve judgment on magic until I get those specific items. I've heard that spells are weird now. Do you equip them to your belt item or do they take the place of a weapon? I'd prefer the latter.

Skill is oozing in this game. Hitboxes are back to being amazing and the flow of combat is just so beautiful.

Only invaded one person and I got trounced. Got to be real careful when going into a combo chain - you are able to be disrupted.

You can parry/riposte heals. This is so cool.

And Astri, you can get more than 20 bullets in a PvP match - it's just gonna cost ya. ;)

Overall I freaking love this game. Can't wait to progress.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Juli » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:35 pm

I think removal of shields is going to be great for PvP. Dodging was always the most solid form of defense, but blocking could be really annoying to get past for certain weapons/builds, while being trivial for other stuff (Mirdan Hammer anyone?). As for PvE, since my second playthrough of DeS, I've always preferred two-handed melee-focused builds. Once you learn to use i-frames to get through stuff, shields seem hardly worth lowering your damage or increasing your equip burden.

Being able to riposte healing sounds amazing. I love healing being a thing in PvP, because it rewards aggressive sequences that don't give your opponent breathing room, but it's always varied between "a tad too strong" to "way too good and horribly boring to play against." Having a quick healing animation that doesn't restore full health and that you can reliably punish if you're on your toes sounds like it could make healing be viable without being so awful that duels are all done with 0 healing.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Tsmp » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:29 pm

Astrichthyes wrote:Removal of shields? Awesome. This is exactly what I wanted in a Souls game. But...

Removal of magic is quite extreme. I played a caster on DeS for the last few years and it was not only fun to play, but tough to win with in PvP if you fought someone who knew what they were doing. I don't think removal of the casting system was necessary if they figured out how to balance it. Things like OHKO GRS, WoG, and Affinity were obvious screw-ups in DkS2, which was not a thoroughly tested project because Bamco honestly didn't give a damn. They simply wanted to line their pockets with as much green as possible. DkS had similar problems with OHKO Bead and Pursuers after AotA was released, also due to a lack of testing.

That said, I think the countershot system works quite well in PvE and is not OP in my opinion because of the fact that you have a limit of 20 shots at any given time and your timing has to be even better than it had to be for parries in the previous two games. I cannot say how it will fare in PvP, but I have no doubt that the most formidable players will learn to proficiently use counterattacks and countershots to their advantage. It seems to be the most effective strategy in PvE so far, at least in my experience.


There's no magic in Bloodborne, as in there's no way to attune and cast spells. That said, there are a number of items that can be used to produce spell-like effects such as buffing your weapon, teleporting, and generating giant tentacles to slap someone off their feet, and these all scale with arcane and are magey enough to call yourself a wizard. A much more toned-down mage that comes off as more of a deranged cultist than a classic wizard, but a mage nonetheless.

Non-physical damage, molotovs, the flamethrower item, and all those magic-like items scale with arcane, so if you want to be this game's version of a wizard that's the stat you need to invest in. It also boosts your item drop rate, which is helpful for collecting the quicksilver bullets they all run on.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Astrichthyes » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:58 pm

Tsmp wrote:There's no magic in Bloodborne, as in there's no way to attune and cast spells. That said, there are a number of items that can be used to produce spell-like effects such as buffing your weapon, teleporting, and generating giant tentacles to slap someone off their feet, and these all scale with arcane and are magey enough to call yourself a wizard. A much more toned-down mage that comes off as more of a deranged cultist than a classic wizard, but a mage nonetheless.

Non-physical damage, molotovs, the flamethrower item, and all those magic-like items scale with arcane, so if you want to be this game's version of a wizard that's the stat you need to invest in. It also boosts your item drop rate, which is helpful for collecting the quicksilver bullets they all run on.

Sounds cool. I'll definitely be giving that a try once I find said items. I only have a few hours logged, so I haven't had the chance to explore beyond central yarnham. Looking forward to more bloodshed ^_^
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:19 am

Backstabs have also been removed! holy shit Miyazaki. All of my <3

Bloodborne>DKS1>DeS>DKS2
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Tsmp » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:28 am

Magicisoverrated wrote:Backstabs have also been removed! holy shit Miyazaki. All of my <3

Bloodborne>DKS1>DeS>DKS2


Backstabs still exist, they're just nearly impossible to pull off once the enemy actually notices you. You need to do a fully charged R2 directly at the center of their back. Some enemies and most bosses can also be put into a backstabbable/ripostable state by repeatedly attacking certain vulnerable parts of their bodies. For example, if you hit the Cleric Beast's head enough times he'll fall over and you can do a critical attack on him.
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Rest in pieces, Manus.

Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:40 am

Tsmp wrote:Backstabs still exist, they're just nearly impossible to pull off once the enemy actually notices you. You need to do a fully charged R2 directly at the center of their back. Some enemies and most bosses can also be put into a backstabbable/ripostable state by repeatedly attacking certain vulnerable parts of their bodies. For example, if you hit the Cleric Beast's head enough times he'll fall over and you can do a critical attack on him.


This is how backstabs should have been done in the beginning. No more circle strafing shenanigans, no more abusing one single animation that relied on lag as much as it did tricky mind games to beat your opponent, it's like miyazaki took everything that was wrong with DeS PvP and threw it out the window and made it even faster. I love this game holy shit.
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Re: Removal of Magic and Shields

Postby Juli » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:24 pm

From a purely flavor standpoint, I love that arcane gadgets are fueled by bullets, which you can get by sacrificing life. Blood magic!
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