In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Discuss the multiple items and magic and miracle abilities of Drangleic.

In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:38 pm

So I decided to give weapon buffs a test, to see how they stack up in comparison to each other. Not so much the elemental aspect of it (since enemies all have varying elemental defences) but more how, say, Resonant Weapon compares to Dark Weapon and Dark Pine Resin. These are the results I got, using the hammer guys in The Mines before Covetous Demon, as well as the Covetous Demon himself, as test subjects.

My build is a level 400 (fuck the meta) 50 VGR 63 END 40 VIT 50 ATN 60/60 STR/DEX 30 ADP 50/50 INT/FTH. I wore full havels except the Gyrm Great Helm while testing simply because I didn't want to run off to heal after every attack. (Though it turned out I needed to anyway, because even with that armor they were still doing 1/3 of my health in one swing). All attacks done were 1-handed R1's, at point-blank range so as to avoid damage from the sweet-spot conflicting. Also, tests are PvE, but I don't see why they wouldn't apply to PvP unless the damage calculation is different on other players for some reason, which I doubt.

Tests with +10 Mundane Broken Straight Sword AR=280.

On Hammerbros in the mines:

Unbuffed 208
A. Ooze 222
L. Pine 242
Ch. Pine 242
D. Pine 243

MW 214
GMW 216
CMW 219
SLB 234
FW 236
DW 235
RW 235

Judging from these preliminary results, it seems resins are more powerful than magic buffs. Also, these guys are magic resistant as fuck. Resonant Weapon is looking useless compared to Dark Weapon. Let's test on Covetous demon with the same weapon, since he's slow.

Covetous Demon:
Unbuffed 268
Ooze 309
Lightning 292
Charcoal 309
Dark 303

MW 286
GMW 292
CMW 300
SLB 287
FW 290
DW 295
RW 295

It appears resins are still beating buffs with this weapon. Also, Covetous demon seems slightly resistant to lightning.Time to test with a heavier weapon.

Uninfused Kings Ultra Greatsword +5 AR=642 1HR1

Hammerbros:
Unbuffed 539
Sticky White Stuff 587
Ground-up-Pikachu 650!
Charcoal Pine Resin 651!
The Dark 652!

MW 562
GMW 570
CMW 584
SLB 643
FW 609
DW 645
RW 644?

THE RESULTS ARE IN. Resins are in fact, stronger than buffs on a pure physical weapon, for whatever reason. I can tell it's not because resins are additive while buffs are percentile, because even on a slow, heavy weapon it does much more damage with a resin, unless these particular weapons have some sort of weird property to increase resin damage.

Do not fret, buffers, for there is a reason to still use magic buffs!
And that is... because you're a filthy tryhad.

Kidding. The real value behind buffs are the infinite, free casts (excluding resonant weapon) and the ability to buff infused weapons. Let's use some elemental, infused weapons and compare the before and after damages.

On the hammerbitches:
Fire Black Knight Greatsword: 452
Flame Weapon: 496

Dark Silverblack spear:326
Dark Weapon: 401
Resonant Weapon: 401 (best buff ever, here)

Lightning Thorned Greatsword: 378
Sunlight Blade: 436

Magic was tested on the Covetous due to hammerbros high magic
resistance.
Magic Blue Flame: 322
MW: 392
GMW: 403
CMW: 403

The conclusions I get from this are many.

For one, the wikis are wrong. Sunlight Blade/Gold Pine Resin does not add "50 points of lightning damage and boosts existing lightning by 30%" (or whatever element you're using). This is obvious from the fact I gained 111 lightning damage on the King's Ultra Greatsword through the hammerbro's defenses, and it had no lightning damage on it.

Also, the wikis is wrong in that it says the damages are the same for Gold Pine Resin and Sunlight blade. I got different damage numbers with both, and the results were conistent (for my small scale test, anyway. It could do with a bit bigger of a sample size) that, on a pure physical weapon anyway, resins beat out buffs.

Another thing, resonant weapon is utterly useless. The only reason I could think to use it is if all your hexes use chimes and you don't want a staff just for dark weapon. Otherwise, use dark weapon.

Crystal Magic Weapon was strange, in that on a pure physical weapon it did more than Great Magic weapon, but on a magic blue flame it did the exact same damage. I feel I should look into this more later, but I'm done testing for now.

All tests were done on the XBOX version, in the latest (1.06) patch. I suppose you could just code-dive to get more accurate answers, but I haven't seen anyone do it yet.

Feel free to add your own suggestions/testing/whatever. Or feel free to call me angry names and send me hatemail. Whatever floats your boat.
Last edited by jumjummju on Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buff Tests

Postby Tsmp » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:29 pm

Most of the information on the various wikis (ours included) came directly from the official guidebook. Most official same-day guidebooks have a history of being terribly inaccurate, and the ones for Dark Souls 1 & 2 are no exception. Thank you for actually testing this out.

If you're willing to do a few more tests, here's something you missed: some uninfused weapons with inherent elemental damage can be buffed with resins, such as the dragonslayer crescent axe and the thorned greatsword. It would be interesting to see by how much more a resin boosted the base elemental damage than a spell.

As for resonant weapon... I would say it might have a single use: buffing and power stancing two Maces of the Insolent. Costs 4,000 souls, but god damn does it hit hard.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Buff Tests

Postby jumjummju » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:42 pm

Ah, forgot about those.

The following tests were done in the same conditions. (Same build, point-blank range, Hammer douches, 1h-r1) All weapons uninfused.

Hammerbros:

Thorned Greatsword: 443
Sunlight Blade: 490
Gold Pine: 525

Dragonslayer Crescent Axe: 399
SLB: 441
GP: 477

Silverblack Spear: 352
Dark Weapon: 411
Resonant Weapon: 411
Dark Pine: 447
(and for giggles)
Flame Weapon: 382
Charcoal Pine: 406

The results are in. Resins are not just superior on physical weapons, they are straight up better on elemental weapons as well. Also, on the hammer guys, I got more damage with an uninfused weapon than the infused ones. However, this is simply probably because the hammerbros have very high elemental defense and no physical defense, so you'll still (generally) get more damage with an infused weapon than an uninfused one, assuming your opponent is wearing average armor. Or even havel's. Also, if you're using an elemental weapon, don't bother buffing with a differenet element.

Resonant weapon is still shit.

Some quick testing on the hollows in the Forest, more specifically sleepy-halberd-guy right outside the bonfire (who undoubtably has less elemental resistance):

Uninfused Silverblack spear: 454
Dark Pine: 548

Infused Silverblack spear(50-ish more AR than uninfused): 451
Dark Weapon: 526

Uninfused Partizan (88 less AR than uninfused silverblack): 454.

Huh.

The results I get for this are, for something with (What I assume to be) really shitty defenses all around, uninfused is still better. Or the hollows are just strong to dark. So let's test with lightning.

Lightning Dragonslayer Crescent Axe (say that 5 times fast): 406
Sunlight Blade: 459

Uninfused Dragonslayer Crescent Axe: 420
Resin: 497

Okay, so these tests aren't giving the infused weapons any good points. Remember, I'm playing a 60/60 STR/DEX 50/50 INT/FTH build, so it's not low stats. (Keep in mind PvP experience may vary due to differing defenses, or perhaps these generic hollows have high elemental defense, which is very strange.)

Now, let's test a pure physical weapon, infused and uninfused, to see if that changes anything.

Darkdrift: 308
Dark Pine: 381

Dark Darkdrift: 313
Dark Weapon: 411
Not even gonna bother with Resonant Weapon.

So it seems that, in PvE against hollows, at least (and with my build) that infusing a weapon that already has an element makes it do less damage, but infusing a pure-physical weapon makes it do more. I'm not sure of the implications of this, but it means that 40/40 builds with uninfused weapons are more viable than people say. (Though, against someone in full havels, you're probably still better off with magic due to the super high physical defense.)

Keep in mind these aren't perfectly conclusive tests since the sampling size was rather small. With other weapons and other enemies, you might have differing results, but the results I had seemed pretty consistent even with my limited sampling pool.

Anyway, I've seen people before talk about base damage like it's different from scaling damage somehow. Namely, I've seen people use weapons like the Black Dragon Greatsword over stuff like the Mastadon Greatsword simply because while the latter has a higher AR the former has more base damage. I don't know why that is, so I did a bit of testing.

Raw Black Dragon Greatsword (AR391): 338
w/ Flame Weapon: 395

Bastard Sword (AR401, 280 base +121): 348
w/ Flame Weapon: 399

The consensus of this is that base damage and added damage from scaling are the exact same, so just take the pure-physical damage numbers at face value. (Assuming you're not using something weird like the Lost Sinner's Sword.) Not even buffs get more damage from base VS added scaling damage, so if you want to maximize your damage potential, scaling is still viable. (Unless you're doing a level 150 and need those extra points, in which case I ask you why are you even bothering with the meta due to soul memory?)
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Re: Buff Tests

Postby Tsmp » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:57 am

Hmm...

Resins can be used on raw weapons, and making a weapon raw boosts its natural elemental damage too (if any). By how much would a raw dragonslayer crescent axe be boosted, I wonder?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: Buff Tests

Postby jumjummju » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:45 am

MORE TESTING (done in 90 degree heat because my AC broke. ;___;)

Testing on the halberd hollow before the 2nd bonfire in Forest of the Fallen giants, or as I call him, "sleepy halberd hollow."
(The damage is different than last test with these weapons on the halberd hollow because I remembered to take my ring of blades +2 off this time.)

Lightning Dragonslayer Crescent Axe (AR 437): 362
Sunlight Blade: 415 (12.7% increase)

Uninfused Dragonslayer Crescent Axe (AR 419): 365
Resin: 442 (17.4%)

Raw DCA (AR 367): 309
Resin: 385 (19.7%)
SLB: 350 (10.6%)

Conclusions: It is fucking hot and that is making me very dehydrated.

Relevant conclusions: With my build (which has high stats) I clearly got a higher damage with the uninfused and Lightning versions than I did with the raw. However I got a higher percentage increase with the raw and resin, but a lower with raw+SLB than elemental+SLB. However, the difference is small, and probably due to the fact that part of the damage increase is percentile and part is additive (E.G. adding 50+30%, like the wiki's say, though that's not the case.)

Let's get some more data on the hammer guys, and then I'll test with the minimum stats for the DCA. Hallelujah for Soul Vessels.

LDCA: 341
SLB: 394 (13.4%)

Unin. DCA: 344
R: 422 (18.4%)

Raw DCA: 289
R: 365 (20.8%)
SLB: 330 (12.4%)

The results are that raw gets SLIGHTLY more of a percentile increase from resins and SLIGHTLY less from the buff, however this is most likely due to the strange defense formula this game uses and is probably not indicative of the resin just being better on a raw weapon. (Really wishing I had the PC version and could just hack in a 0 DEF enemy with infinite health. Preferably one that didn't keep trying to smack me in the face with giant hammers.)

And now to test on a build with the minimum stats for the DCA's. (18 STR, 12 DEX, 6 INT/FTH because deprived, shittons of VGR, ADP, Vit, and END because I needed to put those points somewhere)

On jerk halberd hollow:

LDCA (AR339): 276

Unin. DCA(AR325): 274
R: 342 (19.9%)

Raw DCA(AR325): 272
R: 341 (20.2%)

Conclusions: There is no difference really between added scaling damage and base damage, even for buffs, however resins seem to add a proportionally higher amount of damage on weapons with less damage in general.

Let's take some numbers from the first test, add the percentage increase, and see if they corroborate this.

On the Hammerbros:
Uninfused King's UGS (AR642): 539
Gold Pine Resin: 650 (17.1%)

Mundane Broken Straight Sword (AR280): 208
Gold Pine Resin: 242 (14%)

Conclusion: AAAARGH. The percentage increases weren't consistent with that hypothesis. So, let's test a bunch more weapons against the hammerbros and compare the buff damage and see if we can get any kind of sense out of this. Perhaps the mundane infusion fucked with the pine resin somehow. Or the fact that the King's UGS does Strike. (EDIT: King's UGS has been confirmed to actually do Slash at the time of testing, so it's not even that)

All non-elemental weapons, uninfused. Resin listed is Gold Pine. Enemy used is sleepy halberd hollow in the Forest of the Fallen Giants. Also, back to my original 60/60 STR/DEX 50/50 INT/FTH build.

SLASH

Shortsword (AR321): 322
Resin: 401
Increase: 24.5%

Longsword (AR346): 323
Resin: 400
Inc.: 23.8%

Red Rust Sword (379): 326
Resin: 392
Inc.: 20.2%

Claymore (411): 394
Resin: 487
Inc.: 23.6%

Mastadon Greatsword (445): 392
Resin: 479
Inc.: 22.2%

Falchion (337): 312
Resin: 384
Inc.: 23.1%

Murakumo (499): 402
Resin: 495
Inc.: 23.1%

Blacksteel (352): 388
Resin: 474
Inc.: 22.2%

Drakekeeper's Greataxe (550): 531
Resin: 641
Inc.: 20.7%

THRUST

Rapier (317): 489
Resin: 585
Inc.: 19.6%

Estoc (323): 429
Resin: 509
Inc.: 18.6%

Pickaxe (453): 485
Resin: 225?
Inc.: -53.6%
(Note: I blame the pickaxes strange and mystical ability to hit multiple times on a whim for this discrepency. That or the pickaxe is drunk.)

STRIKE
Mace (385): 399
Resin: 488
Inc.: 22.3%

King's UGS (642): 515
Resin: 618
Inc.: 20% even.

Conclusions: I can't even

The results are conclusive in that the percentage increase from resins was probably coded by a baboon strapped to a random number generator. And some things just boggled my mind.

The shortsword getting more damage with the resin than the longsword, despite having less damage in general, makes no sense at all.

Some weapons doing more than their AR (and the rapier doing MUCH more) could possibly be due to the Direct Hit system, AKA the system that gives weapons sweet spots (like the halberd tip doing more damage than bonking them with the shaft). Or perhaps it's because the game is drunk.

And the pickaxe... My GOD the pickaxe. What in the absolute ass is up with that weapon?

Regardless, I've found no correlation between the weapon's normal damage and the percentile increase. I have found a steady 20%-ish increase in damage from the weapons, though. The actual increase is possibly more, but the hollow probably has some lightning defense. How much is uncertain.

However, the damage increase fluctuated too much for it to simply be a 25% or so increase. Also, it can't just be part additive and part percentile (like the original theory that buffs were +50 and 30% more) since that would make the damage increase more with faster weapons, though there was no such correlation (I.E. the murakumo increased as much as the falchion, despite much more damage.)

So what has all this testing done? It has shown that the calculation for damage increase from resins is probably a LOT more complicated than we thought. That, or the defense calculation is more complicated than we thought. Or the direct hit system.

Basically, SOMETHING here is rather bloody complicated.

And resonant weapon is still shit.

Also, quick minor test with the Ring of Blades.

Longsword: 323
Longsword with Ring of Blades: 378

Longsword with Resin: 400
Longsword with RoB and Resin: 455

So, the +50 from the Ring of Blades +2 managed to add 55 damage. Somehow.

I don't even fucking know anymore. ;-;
Last edited by jumjummju on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby Tsmp » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:51 am

We know that elemental defenses work on a straight-up percentage reduction. 1,000 of any elemental defense (such as fire) will completely negate all damage from that element, 500 will half it, etc.

Physical defense seems to work much the same as defense from the previous dark souls game, using some kind of proportion that reduces damage without ever quite hitting zero. Not 100% sure on that one.

The damage boosts from resins are... weird. Why is it giving a somewhat consistent 20% damage boost on weapons with wildly varying physical ARs? It's almost like it's giving a percentile of the physical damage as lightning or something. If that's the case, pure physical builds would actually be a lot more viable than people think they are.
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:34 pm

So, I did some more testing on a more controlled target, since I got a friend to let me beat up on them, and here's what I got.


On someone with these defenses...
Mag: 311
Fire: 333
Lightning: 375
Dark: 307
And very little physical defense...

Longsword: 244
MW: 272
GMW: 281
CMW: 297
SLB: 291
FW: 278
DW: 299
RW: 299

Ooze: 303
Gold: 297
Char.: 302
Dark: 305

Dark Longsword: 209
DW: 307
RW: 307

On someone in full havels:

Longsword: 116
MW: 146
GMW: 157
CMW: 174
SLB: 169
FW: 152
DW: 176
RW: 176

Ooze: 181
Gold: 175
Char.: 175
Dark: 182

Dark Longsword: 144
DW: 233
RW: 233

Lightning DCA: 125
SLB: 170

Uninfused DCA: 140
Gold Pine: 199
SLB: 172

What I got from this is that all the resins are of the same strength, since the damage increase was the same, just differing very slightly due to defenses. However, all the buffs are the same EXCEPT Flame Weapon, which is marginally weaker.

Also, as it turns out, even on someone stacking physical defense, you're better off leaving your elemental weapons uninfused, but your physical weapons are better infused. Go figure.

Also, it seems there is some truth to buffing an infused weapon doing more damage. The dark longsword had an increase of about 50% in terms of damage, as opposed to the roughly 30%-ish increase on the regular longsword. But the Dragonslayer Crescent Axe didn't.

This boggles my mind, truly. I will do more testing tomorrow, if I can.

Percentage increases will be added later due to lazyness.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:16 pm

Alright, now it's time for the percentages and some more conclusions (since the last post was a bit rushed due to being really hot and tired. On the plus side, new AC hype!).

On someone with these defenses...
Mag: 311
Fire: 333
Lightning: 375
Dark: 307
And very little physical defense...

Longsword: 244
MW: 272 (11.4%)
GMW: 281 (15.2%)
CMW: 297 (21.7%)
SLB: 291 (19.3%)
FW: 278 (13.9%)
DW: 299 (22.5%)
RW: 299 (Still Shit%)

Ooze: 303 (24.2%)
Gold: 297 (21.7%)
Char.: 302 (23.8%)
Dark: 305 (25% even)

Dark Longsword: 209
DW: 307 (46.9%)
RW: 307 (Why is this a buff%)

On someone in full havels:

Longsword: 116
MW: 146 (25.9%)
GMW: 157 (35.3%)
CMW: 174 (50% even. Holy shit)
SLB: 169 (45.7%)
FW: 152 (31%)
DW: 176 (51.7%)
RW: 176 (Holy batman%)

Ooze: 181 (56%)
Gold: 175 (50.9%)
Char.: 175 (50.9%)
Dark: 182 (56.9%)

Dark Longsword: 144
DW: 233 (fucking 61.8%)
RW: 233 (Still fucking 61.8%, this buff is shit)

Lightning DCA: 125
SLB: 170 (36% even)

Uninfused DCA: 140
Gold Pine: 199 (42.1%)
SLB: 172 (22.9%)


Alright, so the results are in... and they are inconclusive as ever.

Taking into account the minor variations in defense, all the magical buffs are equal except Flame Weapon, which is more akin to Great Magic Weapon in terms of strength. Resonant Weapon is perfectly equal to Dark Weapon as well, so you know my stance on that.

All of the resins are also of the same strength.

But just what is that strength exactly? Unfortunately, I don't know, since I can't find anyone with bottomed out 0's across the board in terms of defense.

However, these results did turn out something very... odd. The very high percentage increase on someone in havel's was expected: Havel's has a MUCH higher physical defense than a magical one. Assuming they don't use GMB, you'll do more damage with magic. And if they use GMB, as well as Numbness and Sacred Oath, then... well, you're still fucked. Just hope your dagger backstabs can whittle them down.

What was strange was on the first tests. On someone with higher magic defenses, the infused longsword did less damage. This is understandable. But it did more damage with the buffs.

I don't know why, but on an infused weapon, it seems that the magical buffs gets, er, buffed to increase it's damage more. This got to the point where on someone with no physical defense and decent magic defense, an infused-with-buff weapon did as much as an uninfused-with-buff, despite the latter doing more damage without the buff and with resins being stronger.

But then, on the DCA (goddamn I love that thing), even though my AR is higher on the infused one, and since it does more lightning damage than physical, it should by all rights do more damage to someone in full havels, but it doesn't. I have absolutely no clue why that works, since I'm doing 50 less total damage, and more of that damage proportionally is physical, which gets blocked more by havels. And the resin on an uninfused one was stronger than the buff on the infused one, despite this not being the case with pure physical weapons. If he had GMB on, the damage difference would've been even greater!

So, what do I make of these tests? It seems that on an all-rounder build (SL838 meta FTW) and you're using buffs, infuse your pure physical weapons and buff them, and don't infuse your elemental weapons. Leave those Heide Knight Swords alone and infuse the shit outta those katanas.

Oh, and I remember from the first test getting a strange anomoly with Crystal Magic Weapon, namely in that it didn't get any stronger on a Blue Flame whereas it was stronger on non-elemental weapons, so let's test that quickly.

On sleepy hollow guy, still same build:

Longsword: 323
GMW: 382
CMW: 407
Ooze: 417

Magic Longsword: 356
GMW: 451
CMW: 481

Magic Blue Flame: 287
GMW: 379
CMW: 379?

Magic Blue Flame (Shoot Soul Arrow): 240
GMW: 303
CMW: 303

Alright, so it's not the fact that the elemental nature of the weapon does something with the CMW. It just seems to be the blue flame.

The only practical thing I can think about this is that it means if you plan on dual-buffing two blue flames, use Great Magic Weapon. It looks cooler than CMW, too, because CMW just looks ridiculous.

Alright, well then. Anyone have any more ideas for me to test these strange buffing mechanics? If no one suggests anything, I'll look further into the whole "getting less damage with an elemental weapon infused despite having a much higher AR" problem with a few more weapons than just the Dragonslayer Crescent Axes.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby Tsmp » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:40 pm

I guess as long as I'm here, I'll throw out a few random ideas and maybes.

It'd be really nice to have the total defensive stats of the person you were attacking while they were in havel's. I never did take the time to memorize what all a max level character had with that on. The best I can figure, if they have 800-ish lightning or whatever defense, that'll reduce the lightning damage by 80%. Physical defense doesn't work the same way as elemental defenses do, so a lower number doesn't necessarily mean a lower defensive value.

If I recall correctly (or assuming I'm not horribly misinformed), the spell buffs boost the matching elemental damage by a percentage. Based on your tests, the resin buffs seem to give an amount of elemental damage based on the physical AR of the weapon? Maybe? I'm just guessing there, but if that's the case it would probably stack on top of any matching damage already on the weapon, such as an uninfused +10 DCA. And if that's the case, it would neatly explain why weapons that already have a secondary damage type get a much higher AR boost from resins if they aren't infused than they do from spells if they are infused. Of course, there's the issue of weapons that can be buffed with spells but not resins...

Which is probably the last relevant thing you'd really need to test to call this done. Things like the black knight weapons that can be buffed with spells but not resins: better when infused, or not?
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Rest in pieces, Manus.

Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:06 pm

Alright, so let's test that weird thing with the Dragonslayer Crescent Axes and see if it applies to all weapons.

On someone completely naked, with these defenses:

Strike: 71
Slash: 71
Thrust: 71
Magic: 30
Fire: 48
Lightning: 76
Dark: 30

On my normal build, with the Ring of Blades +2 on...
(Keep in mind, if for the uninfused I used the magic buff instead of a resin, it was because I was unable to apply the resin. Some weapons, even uninfused, can't be resined.)

Blue Flame (AR434): 394
Ooze: 508 (28.9%)

Magic Blue Flame (AR398): 348
CMW: 427 (22.7%)

Heide Knight Sword (AR473): 430
SLB: 488 (13.5%)

Lightning Heide Knight Sword (477): 415
SLB: 480 (15.7%)

Black Knight Greatsword (572): 537
FW: 576 (7.3% Woohoo.)

Fire BKGS (587): 540
FW: 587 (8.7%)

Black Knight Ultragreatsword (640): 539
FW: 580 (7.6%)

Fire BKUGS (653): 539
FW: 588 (9.1%)

Chaos Rapier (408): 357
Char.: 466 (30.5%)

Fire Chaos Rapier (395): 341
FW: 394 (15.5%)

DCA (469): 437
GP: 520 (19%)

Lightning DCA (477): 433
SLB: 489 (12.9%)

Mace of the Insolent (411): 374
GP: 446 (19.3%)

Lightning Mace of the Insolent (444): 398
SLB: 440 (10.6%)

Chime Hammer (772): 689
Dark Pine: 802 (16.4%)

Dark Chime Hammer (848): 743
DW: 840 (13.1%)

Iron King Hammer (614): 543
Char.: 640 (17.7%)

Fire Iron King Hammer (645): 560
FW: 614 (9.6%)

Silverblack Spear (435): 384
Resin: 484 (26%)

Dark SB Spear (484): 414
DW: 490 (18.4%)

Dragonrider's Halberd (617): 265
CMW: 299 (12.8%)

Magic Dragonrider's Halberd (623): 261
CMW: 298 (14.2%)

Silverblack Sickle (496): 393
Pine: 480 (22.1%)

Dark SB Sickle (497): 373
DW: 434 (16.4%)

Dragonrider's Twinblade (430): 349
CMW: 400 (14.6%)

Magic Dragonrider's Twinblade (437): 344
CMW: 403 (17.1%)

Well, just by going from the numbers I can say for a fact that infusing an elemental weapon isn't good nor bad. Some weapons increased in damage, some decreased.

What does this mean? It just means that some weapons are more viable infused than others, and it also probably depends on your build. Unfortunately, do to this, you'll have to test on an individual basis whether infusing increases the total damage output or not since the AR numbers are not perfectly reliable. That, or it comes down to personal preference on whether you want to do more physical or more elemental.

KEEP IN MIND: On weapons with special R2's (E.G. Blue Flame, Thorned Greatsword, etc.) infusing might be a good idea even if it decreases damage all around normally, since most of the time the R2 is governed purely by the elemental damage and not the physical. It's all up to you, really.

And now for the buffs.

It is dissapointing that, even when defense isn't a factor, I could not get either a clear percentage increase or additive increase.

The only constants I could get were:

-Flame Weapon is weaker than the other buffs.
-Resonant Weapon is useless.
-Resins are always stronger than buffs if they're usable.

Also, something interesting. It seems that when a weapon was infused with it's element and buffed with said element, it made the buff slightly more effective percentage-wise.

What I can gather from this is that the formula takes a percentage of the physical damage, and adds magic damage based from that, and then takes a percentage of the elemental damage that is proportionially higher than the physical one, and adds elemental from that as well.

E.G. the damage increase could be, say, 10% of physical and 20% of elemental damage added onto the buff.

But this doesn't explain why the numbers are all over the place. From previous tests I've had percentage increases of 50%! The high increase was from putting a magical buff on an infused, normally NON-elemental weapon which, proportionally, has LESS elemental damage than an infused elemental weapon. But it gets a stronger buff?

Some more constants:

-Physical weapons infused gain more bonuses from buffs than elemental weapons infused.
-Magic Buffs are slightly stronger the more of the element is present.
-Physical weapons in general, even uninfused, seemed to get more buff damage than elemental weapons.

Unfortunately, due to these crazy numbers, I cannot yet say exactly WHAT the formula for resins and buffs is.

However, one thing is for sure, it's most definitely not just 30% +50. So, the wiki's will have to be updated with the constants I found.

I miss the days when a buff was just flat damage. ;-;
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:00 pm

And now to test the ridiculous increase on physical-yet-infused weapons to see if it's consistent.

Fire Longsword: 351
Flame Weapon: 423 (20.5%)

Lightning Longsword: 348
SLB: 453 (30.2%)

Magic Longsword: 383
Meth Crystals: 509 (32.9%)

Dark Longsword: 354
THE DAAAAAARK: 461 (30.2%)
Resonant Weapon: 468 (32.2%)

Alright, yeah, just by going from that it seems the magical buffs are stronger on an infused, non-elemental weapon than any other possible buff.

Dafuq game.

Anyway, that's the last of the testing I'll be doing. Have fun guys.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby CptCosmic » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:36 am

physical weapon infused usually have higher base elemental damage than weapons with built in elemental damage thus it makes sense that weapon buffs on infused pure physical weapons are better if they actually add a % buff additionally to a small flat amount.

anyway, I do not know how buffs work but I know that dragon slayer crescent axe hits with alot of damage for the stamina it uses when buffed with resin on a character with 40 STR/FTH combined with ring of blades and lightning clutch ring. if the range on the weapon would be only a bit longer though...
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:54 pm

I LIED

Have some more tests, this time on whether the lightning damage on a weapon means anything directly! Also, to see if the Lightning Clutch Ring affects buff damage.

With 60/60 STR/DEX and 50/50 INT/FTH, on sleepy halberd hollow:

Battleaxe (0 lightning damage): 372
GPR: 463 (24.5%)
SLB: 455 (22.3%)
GPR w/ ring: 471 (26.6%)
SLB w/ ring: 462 (24.2%)

Interjection: The ring does indeed affect both resins and the spell and it does so equally, so I don't need to bother testing with it anymore.

Lightning Battleaxe (175+46 lightning damage): 396
SLB: 502 (26.8%)

Dragonslayer Crescent Axe (60+62 lightning damage): 371
GPR: 449 (21%)
SLB: 414 (11.6%)

Lightning DCA (86+104 lightnig damage): 369
SLB: 423 (14.6%)

Conclusions: The amount of lightning damage does NOT make a difference... probably. While the Lightning-infused versions of both of the weapons DID have a higher percentage increase, the uninfused, pure physical weapon had more than both of the elemental weapons, but less than the pure-physical-into-lightning-infused axe.

What I gather from this is just that pure physical weapons, once infused, gain a hidden modifier to increase the amount of damage that gets added, and that already elemental weapons have a hidden modifier to decrease, making them seem more like they're supposed to be used as elemental supplements for a melee build than as a weapon made for mage build.

HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that lightning damage DOESN'T play a role. It's possible that there is no such modifier on plain-into-infused weapons, like the lightning battleaxe, and that it just gets more of a buff increase due to the existing lightning damage. OR, the fact that instead of going from pure physical to split damage, it's going from split to still split makes it's percentage higher, though that last bit is improbable since split damage hardly means anything due to magic defense being purely percentile.

It does seem, though, that elemental weapons, like the DCA, have a modifier that decreases the effectiveness on buffs on them.

WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU: Strangely, a warrior would want to use the Dragonslayer Crescent Axe if they wanted to do lightning damage, or just a plain battle axe with a resin, while a mage would want a plain battleaxe, infuse it with lightning, and then buff it with SLB for the maximum benefit. This seems to be consistent for every other weapon class as well. So warriors with the minimum INT/FTH needed would want to use a silverblack spear, while a mage would want to infuse a spear with dark and use that. Warriors would make good use of the black knight weapons, while a mage might be better off with a fire claymore/halberd/UGS/great axe. (Assuming your mage could even USE a greataxe.)

However, this is assuming you buff. If you're not buffing, and you're a mage character... an infused claymore is still probably better for you than something like the watcher's sword for almost all weapons, with very few exceptions (the pre-patch Lightning Defender's Greatsword, for example, was beastly for a faith build, but is now inferior to a lightning claymore.)

Feel free to make what you want of this information, and if you have any more ideas for testing, lemme know and I'll get to work.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby WyrmHero » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:21 pm

Just some suggestions/feedback, I haven't read your whole post nor the thread sorry.

All damage tests should be done by backstabbing, this the best waybto avoid the sweetspot thing and also counter damage, although sonetimes counter damage happens while backstabbing. So always take 3 damage samples at least. The easiest way to test is by backstabbing hollows in the crypt, since they respawn and don't seem to have high elemental defense.

In the other wiki I'm part off we discovered that weapons with built-in elemental AR suffer a damage bonus decrease from spell buffs. So for example an uninfused Sacred Chime Hammer will do more damage with a dark resin than with Dark Weapon.

Also while infused, the bonus BIE weapons receive is less than regular infused weapons. For example a Dark Great Club receives a higher bonus from Dark Weapon than a Dark Sacred Chime Hammer. SCH could do more damage but the bonus it gets is lower because it's a BIE weapon. This might be because elemental defenses are harder than physical defenses, and regular infused have equally split physical/elemental AR.

Also take into consideration the counter damage number when testing weapons of different types. Example testing a dagger with a counter damage of 150 vs a rapier with counter damage of 120.

Again not sure if you've noticed this since I didn't read sorry.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby Tsmp » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:41 pm

I should probably mention, the lightning clutch ring behaves differently on infused weapons with pre-existing lightning damage. For example, on the dragonslayer crescent axe it'll give +30, but on a lightning dragonslayer crescent axe it'll give something around +40.

WyrmHero wrote:Just some suggestions/feedback, I haven't read your whole post nor the thread sorry.

All damage tests should be done by backstabbing, this the best waybto avoid the sweetspot thing and also counter damage, although sonetimes counter damage happens while backstabbing. So always take 3 damage samples at least. The easiest way to test is by backstabbing hollows in the crypt, since they respawn and don't seem to have high elemental defense.

In the other wiki I'm part off we discovered that weapons with built-in elemental AR suffer a damage bonus decrease from spell buffs. So for example an uninfused Sacred Chime Hammer will do more damage with a dark resin than with Dark Weapon.

Also while infused, the bonus BIE weapons receive is less than regular infused weapons. For example a Dark Great Club receives a higher bonus from Dark Weapon than a Dark Sacred Chime Hammer. SCH could do more damage but the bonus it gets is lower because it's a BIE weapon. This might be because elemental defenses are harder than physical defenses, and regular infused have equally split physical/elemental AR.

Also take into consideration the counter damage number when testing weapons of different types. Example testing a dagger with a counter damage of 150 vs a rapier with counter damage of 120.

Again not sure if you've noticed this since I didn't read sorry.


This is very interesting. What is BIE? "Base infused elemental"?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby WyrmHero » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:20 am

Tsmp wrote:
This is very interesting. What is BIE? "Base infused elemental"?


"Built-in elemental", like the Dragonslayer Crescent Axe you just mentioned.

Lightning Clutch Ring is weird, the highest bonus is reflected on my lightning Dragon Chime, while lightning Santier's has the lowest bonus and Defender's GS an average bonus.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:11 pm

WyrmHero wrote:Just some suggestions/feedback, I haven't read your whole post nor the thread sorry.

All damage tests should be done by backstabbing, this the best waybto avoid the sweetspot thing and also counter damage, although sonetimes counter damage happens while backstabbing. So always take 3 damage samples at least. The easiest way to test is by backstabbing hollows in the crypt, since they respawn and don't seem to have high elemental defense.

In the other wiki I'm part off we discovered that weapons with built-in elemental AR suffer a damage bonus decrease from spell buffs. So for example an uninfused Sacred Chime Hammer will do more damage with a dark resin than with Dark Weapon.

Also while infused, the bonus BIE weapons receive is less than regular infused weapons. For example a Dark Great Club receives a higher bonus from Dark Weapon than a Dark Sacred Chime Hammer. SCH could do more damage but the bonus it gets is lower because it's a BIE weapon. This might be because elemental defenses are harder than physical defenses, and regular infused have equally split physical/elemental AR.

Also take into consideration the counter damage number when testing weapons of different types. Example testing a dagger with a counter damage of 150 vs a rapier with counter damage of 120.

Again not sure if you've noticed this since I didn't read sorry.


I've pretty much covered everything you just said. :P

One of the main things I've mentioned is that weapons with base elemental damage get less of a bonus than something without, so the DCA gets less damage from SLB than a regular battleaxe. And a lightning battleaxe gets even MORE damage, making the strongest weapons something like a Dark Chaos Blade with Dark Weapon. And I've also mentioned many times that resins are stronger than the magical equivalent in every situation they can be used in.

And I did take into consideration the sweet-spots and counter damage. The majority of my tests after a certain point were done either on a friend as a phantom who stood perfectly still, or on the hollow with the halberd right before the second bonfire in the Forest of Fallen Giants as he was standing up, so they're all consistent. (The early ones were on the ogres with hammers in the Mines at Harvest Valley, but I tested those multiple times so that information should still be fine.) As for sweet spot damage, I made sure to be point-blank for every single weapon (Which is why some weapons, like any halberds I tested, have arse damage, since I was clonking them with the stick) for all of my tests (including the early ones). And counter damage doesn't apply since apparently his standing animation doesn't count as being in the middle of an animation. (And, as I mentioned, I made sure to test the first ones on the hammerbros multiple times just in case this got in the way.)

So while I know you were trying to be helpful, you mostly just ended up singing to the choir. Sorry. :c

Tsmp wrote:I should probably mention, the lightning clutch ring behaves differently on infused weapons with pre-existing lightning damage. For example, on the dragonslayer crescent axe it'll give +30, but on a lightning dragonslayer crescent axe it'll give something around +40.


I'll test this when I get back home Monday, but my guess is that's simply because there's more lightning damage on the latter so it's damage goes up proportionally higher. It seems the Lightning Clutch Ring is simply percentile, in terms of damage. (Though, considering how buffs are much more complicated than that, who knows. You probably need a virgin sacrifice to get the thing to work correctly or something.)

Anyway, if anyone comes into this thread and gets put off by it due to the sheer amount of numbers, one of these days I plan on making another thread that is literally just the relevant conclusions done in a more succint manner, so people can use my research without needing to study it like a textbook. :P
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby Astro_Train » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:06 am

jesus... that is a lot of info... with no AC too! makes me want to run pure physical build now.
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Demons Souls Toons= SL 124 Faith Build SL 125 Quality Build SL 124 BBS Build
Dark Souls Toons= SL 125 Dex/Faith SL 100 STR/Faith
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby WyrmHero » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:35 pm

I'm glad to see we both came to the same results. Thanks for the reply.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:27 pm

The DLC added some swaggin' new weapons with built in buffs. So, I'd say it's time I finally tested the weapons with built-in buffs. Note: This isn't complete, as I'm not doing the Throne Bitch's swords with infusions nor the Possessed Armor Sword without an infusion, partially due to time restraints and a lack of upgrade materials/motivation to farm.

For now, I'm not gonna test the Alonne sword with any elements, since I don't actually know WHAT element the buff is, if it even IS an element.

Build: 70/70 STR/DEX and 50/50 INF/FTH.

Defender's GS: 465
Buff: 610 (31.2%)

Watcher's Sword: 507
Buff: 692 (36.5%, hot dayum)

Fire Possessed Armor Sword: 373
Buff: 423 (13.4%)

Bewitched Alonne Sword: 533
Seppuku buff: 733 (37.5%)

2H BAS: 640
2H Sudoku buff: 879 (37.3%)

Jesus, these buffs are powerful as fuck. And the Alonne Sword deserves it, you are IMPALING yourself for that, and it only lasts like 30 seconds, but HOT DAYUMN do you shred through people like butter.

But the lackluster increase from the Possessed Armor sword is a bit dissapointing. Perhaps the hollow is just strong to fire? I shall do a quick resin test. (Do note, even if is, it shouldn't throw any of my results off much since I'm mostly going for relative effectiveness over actual specific numbers, and Flame Weapon is still considerably weaker.)

Longsword: 384
Dark Pine: 436
Charcoal Pine: 435
Lightning Pine: 434
Ooze: 445

Eh, they're just slightly weak to magic, and only slightly. Not a big deal, really, just keep that in mind for the Watcher's sword.

Regardless, this just means that the Possessed Armor Sword seems to have a weakened form of a buff as opposed to the others, which makes sense. It's the same reason why Flame Weapon is weaker than CMW or the like; it requires no stats, since it's a pyromancy. Shame, though. Fire's cool, it's kinda sad that it's the "beginner's spells" class of magic.

Speaking of which, I want a damn Black Flame Weapon spell like the Fume Knight has. >:C
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:12 pm

Just for completionists sake, I'm going to run a quick test whether Faith affects SLB and resins.

Uninfused longsword, 70/70 STR/DEX.

51 Faith:
Longsword: 329
Resin: 379
SLB Witchtree Branch: 399
SLB Dragon Chime: 399

Intermediary: What the fuck? Why are resins suddenly doing less than sunlight blade? Dafuq.

I don't want to have to retest everything. ;-;

Anyway, we have concluded that your chime's lightning damage (there was a difference of about a 100 lightning damage between the two chimes) does NOT affect anything.

36 Faith:
Longsword: 329
Resin: 378
SLB Witchtree branch: 396

Well, fuck.

Here I was, proving the official guide wrong, and then never testing if your lightning attack affected buffs because the guide said that it didn't affect it.

And it does.

Your stats do affect buff damage. Including with resins.

Which more or less invalidates literally everything I wrote involving actual specific numbers. WELL FUCK ME

Also, sunlight blade is suddenly doing more damage than gold pine resin! (I'm guessing it was a change due to a patch)

EVERYTHING I HAVE KNOWN IS A LIE

EVERYTHING

On a side note, this means I'll be deleting my guide I have in the guide's section since apparently that's all wrong misinformation.

I don't even know what ISN'T misinformation now. I might have to redo all my tests from the beginning.

Oh dear.
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby oMDKo » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:32 am

Poor jumjumju :(
We appreciate the work you put in this but.... You're a LIAR!

However: considering how many levels you have to put into the appropiate stat to use a buff effectivly (duration depends on how high your stat is afaik) Resins are still better imo
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby Tsmp » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:03 am

... How did you sunlight blade a witchtree branch?
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Useful notes for Dark Souls 2, by yours truly:
Magic System Guide:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=19416

Dual Wielding Power Stance how-to:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19381

Bonfire Ascetic Guide and Explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19345&p=185263#p185263

Invading in the Dark Chasm of Old:
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=19608
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Re: In-Depth Buff Tests (Resins VS Magical and other tests)

Postby jumjummju » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:26 pm

Tsmp wrote:... How did you sunlight blade a witchtree branch?


I casted the spell using the branch, to test whether using a weaker chime affected damage at all. (Like how in DKS1 your mag adjust affected the buff damage.)

It does not, as both increased the same despite about 100 less lightning damage.

oMDKo wrote:Poor jumjumju :(
We appreciate the work you put in this but.... You're a LIAR!

:cry:
Goddamn From and their strange buffs.

However: considering how many levels you have to put into the appropiate stat to use a buff effectivly (duration depends on how high your stat is afaik) Resins are still better imo

Yeah, but only if you're a meta build/lower level. When you're at 99 in every stat, it's more convenient to use a magical buff since you don't have to keep rebuying them. And, also, infused weapons.

NOTES THOUGH: At some point tonight I will be testing two things. One, I'll be testing resins VS magical buffs on a larger scale again to see if it's consistent or if the longsword is drunk. Two, I'll be doing multiple tests involving lightning attack (the thing that goes up with faith/lightning clutch ring) on SLB and gold pine resin damage and see if I can get an accurate calculation.
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