Bastard Sword or Claymore?

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Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Knight Flavie » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:46 am

This decision is just haunting me forever. I've used the Bastard Sword extensively in both games and found it to be great. Everyone seems to hold the Calymore in higher regard, so I gave it a try. Note, that this is all anecdotal, but it seems to do slightly more damage, have slightly longer reach, and a much better R2 attack, but swings slower and uses more stamina.

But, does it do more poise damage? The Bastard Sword seems to work better for me (except when I need that long range R2 poke) in most situations, because of it's faster attack speed.

Has anyone done an extensive comparison of the two?
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Bloodwolf » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:09 pm

I use both.

I prefer the Bastard because of the overhead strong attack. The Claymore thrust has a nasty tendency (for me) to thrust just slightly away from target at crucial moments (PvE). The minimal difference in damage doesn't mean much to me. They both have the follow up circular swing when chaining strong attacks.

I believe the Mastodon Greatsword has the Bastard Sword move set as well.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Jman1988 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:09 pm

I personally prefer Claymore. Bastard Sword is nice, and I do appreciate the vertical hitbox of the 1HR2, but the Claymore still wins out for me.

Claymore is longer, stronger, and while the R2s don't have great vertical hitboxes, you can still manage to hit short enemies. The roll and f+R2 attacks are vertical, so they are nice for taking out small enemies like crystal lizards. Also, if you point the camera all the way down (while not locked onto an enemy), the 1HR2 and 2HR2 attacks are pretty capable of hitting short enemies. Test it out for yourself against the Majula pigs. Camera angling has a subtle but tangible role to play in Dark Souls combat.

I have made plenty of use of the Bastard Sword's R2 attacks, but still, when two-handed, the Bastard Sword's R1 and R2 are somewhat redundant, and not as complimentary as the Claymore's R1 and R2 attacks.

The edge that Bastard Sword has on R1 chains is extremely PvE-centric, and even then, it's not as valuable as it sounds. It might be nice for normal enemies while you're building up Endurance, and your weapon is hardly upgraded, but when you have a max-upgraded weapon with plenty of stamina, you should be running out of stamina a lot less frequently. Among normal enemies, how many will really need more than 2-3 R1 swings of a greatsword? Among the ones that do, how many of them is it safe to use more than 2-3 R1 swings against (e.g. Ironclad Knights)? There will be some enemies where R1 spam advantage is useful, but it's highly situational, when you think about it.

When all of this is considered, it's clear why Claymore weighs more. Yeah, it wouldn't be fair if I skipped over this downside of Claymore.

Mastadon Sword is pretty cool. I'm pretty sure its longer than Claymore, and I think it may actually be stronger, but oy, it weighs a ton. I look forward to playing around with it on a Strength build, but my Q build is staying under 50% equip burden.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Jman1988 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:09 pm

I personally prefer Claymore. Bastard Sword is nice, and I do appreciate the vertical hitbox of the 1HR2, but the Claymore still wins out for me.

Claymore is longer, stronger, and while the R2s don't have great vertical hitboxes, you can still manage to hit short enemies. The roll and f+R2 attacks are vertical, so they are nice for taking out small enemies like crystal lizards. Also, if you point the camera all the way down (while not locked onto an enemy), the 1HR2 and 2HR2 attacks are pretty capable of hitting short enemies. Test it out for yourself against the Majula pigs. Camera angling has a subtle but tangible role to play in Dark Souls combat.

I have made plenty of use of the Bastard Sword's R2 attacks, but still, when two-handed, the Bastard Sword's R1 and R2 are somewhat redundant, and not as complimentary as the Claymore's R1 and R2 attacks.

The edge that Bastard Sword has on R1 chains is extremely PvE-centric, and even then, it's not as valuable as it sounds. It might be nice for normal enemies while you're building up Endurance, and your weapon is hardly upgraded, but when you have a max-upgraded weapon with plenty of stamina, you should be running out of stamina a lot less frequently. Among normal enemies, how many will really need more than 2-3 R1 swings of a greatsword? Among the ones that do, how many of them is it safe to use more than 2-3 R1 swings against (e.g. Ironclad Knights)? There will be some enemies where R1 spam advantage is useful, but it's highly situational, when you think about it.

When all of this is considered, it's clear why Claymore weighs more. Yeah, it wouldn't be fair if I skipped over this downside of Claymore.

Mastadon Sword is pretty cool. I'm pretty sure its longer than Claymore, and I think it may actually be stronger, but oy, it weighs a ton. I look forward to playing around with it on a Strength build, but my Q build is staying under 50% equip burden.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby killface38 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:11 am

I might actually go so far in saying the claymore is one of if not THE most well rounded weapon in the game... based on:

Weight
Damage
Range
Move-set


Sure... there are weapons that can out-damage... there are weapons that can out-reach... there are weapons that are lighter...

...but when you consider ALL of these factors...

...dat clay-clay be all about it yo.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby plaintomato » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:13 am

I think of both the Bastard Sword and Claymore move sets as Claymore move sets really. One is the Claymore moveset from Demon's Souls, one is the Claymore moveset from Dark Souls, and the difference isn't so significant to change your choice - I let other aspects of my build (AR, equip %) determine the best sword. There are at least five "Claymores" I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Bastard - lighter weight and stat reqs.
2. Mastadon - for STR builds, highest overall AR because of how STR investments scale compared to DEX.
3. Claymore - for Q builds.
4. Mirrah(s) - for DEX builds.
5. Drangleic - I don't rememember, it's another Clay though.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Thaumogenesis » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:42 am

The question is, whether you want that R2 thrust or not. If you do, then there is no real alternative to the Clay. Mastodon weighs a ton and does not deal that much damage and Mirrah was worse than Clay when i infused to light and had 20 Str 40 Dex 50 Fth.

-> Clay.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Gabrien » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:51 am

Thaumogenesis wrote:The question is, whether you want that R2 thrust or not. If you do, then there is no real alternative to the Clay. Mastodon weighs a ton and does not deal that much damage and Mirrah was worse than Clay when i infused to light and had 20 Str 40 Dex 50 Fth.

-> Clay.


What's wrong with either the Drangleic or Black Knight Greatsword? Both have the thrust and outdamage the Claymore, with the Black Knight additionally having extended range.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Thaumogenesis » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:53 am

Black Knight uses significantly more Stamina, Drangleic the same (although i've not tested this one a lot). I think the Clay has longer range than BK too.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Gabrien » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:01 pm

Thaumogenesis wrote:Black Knight uses significantly more Stamina, Drangleic the same (although i've not tested this one a lot). I think the Clay has longer range than BK too.


BK uses only slightly more stamina... With 20 END I get four R1 swings out of either. And the BK definitely has the longer range. For sure it is heavier, has stiffer requirements, and worse DEX scaling. But if we're talking damage/range above all, there is no contest.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Thaumogenesis » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:10 pm

Well, at 20 End i would use neither of these Swords tbh ;)

At 40 End (with 3rd DR):
1h Clay: 6x R1 / 4x R2
2h Clay: 5x R1 / 4x R2

1h BKGS: 4x R1 / 3x R2
2h BKGS: 3x R1 / 2x R2

Pretty sure you don't get 4 R1 swings at 20 End from the BKGS, but then again, i'm not gonna vessel to verify. Can't say much about the damage and I think comparisons are a bit weird since the BKGS requires a lot more stats to be wielded. Tbh, i don't think it's worth it unless you are using it on a Hexer, plus it weighs 50% more than the Clay.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Gabrien » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:23 pm

Thaumogenesis wrote:Pretty sure you don't get 4 R1 swings at 20 End from the BKGS, but then again, i'm not gonna vessel to verify.


Well, you could just take my word for it too. :)
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Thaumogenesis » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:31 pm

When i get 4 swings at 40 End, i find it hard to believe that i get 4 swings at 20 End too ;)

But i'm gonna believe it nontheless :D
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Gabrien » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:05 pm

Thaumogenesis wrote:When i get 4 swings at 40 End, i find it hard to believe that i get 4 swings at 20 End too ;)

But i'm gonna believe it nontheless :D


20 END gives you 120 Stamina. 40 END gives you 140. Not really a huge difference when you look at it that way, as opposed to looking at the fact that double the points were invested.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Gabrien » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:22 pm

After a little testing, here's what I think is actually happening: the BK costs 40 Stamina per R1 swing. My fourth swing occurs at 1/2 that requirement while yours occurs at full. However, the way the mechanics work, this does not translate to 1/2 the damage on fourth swing, though it should be slightly reduced. The interesting conclusion appears to be that it is only worth raising stamina enough to give you an extra swing with your weapon of choice for the investment to make sense. For the BK, this would mean having over 160 stamina, which means raising END to over 60. So either 20 or 60+. Anything in between is points better invested elsewhere. Of course depending on your weapon of choice this will vary.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Astro_Train » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:11 pm

I have to agree for the weight investment the Clay is the best choice overall given that the Poise damage is not that much higher on the heavier greatswords.... and if you are going to go with a heavier greatsword then just go to an ultra greatsword and get the benefit of the bigger poise damage that they do.
I love the clay for PvE and its a decent PvP weapon too...

I prefer the Defender Greatsword (same moveset) which will scale better with a Faith build when you infuse it to lightning since it already has a stat bonus to Faith. The trade off of course is that you cannot buff it unlike a standard or elemental Clay +10. So it really depends on what build you are running. I am currently running both, a Lightning Defender +4 (need one more petrefied bone to go to +5) and a lightning Clay +10. I use them both on long levels when one is getting close to breaking I switch to the other one.
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Jman1988 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:30 pm

Gabrien wrote:What's wrong with either the Drangleic or Black Knight Greatsword? Both have the thrust and outdamage the Claymore, with the Black Knight additionally having extended range.

Yeah, um... how can Drangleic Sword possibly compare to Claymore? Claymore has way more range than Drangleic, while consuming the same amount of stamina, and it weighs 1.0 less, and tbh, Claymore 2HR1 > Drangleic 2HR1 (it's way better at snagging rolling players, even with range aside). Drangleic might be able to do a tiny bit more damage, but... it's not worth it. Claymore wasn't the strongest greatsword in DkS1, but it was the top one (maybe MLGS aside), because of the reasons that killface highlighted.

killface38 wrote:Weight
Damage
Range
Move-set


Claymore is feeling just as great in DKS2 as it did in DkS1, for the same reasons.

I love the BKG's range as much as I hate its weight, stamina usage, and 2H moveset. :lol: Okay, okay, its 2HR2 isn't THAT bad, but give me a choice between movesets... yeah. Anyway, BKG looks like it could make for a respectable fire-infused greatsword.

Astro_Train wrote:I prefer the Defender Greatsword (same moveset) which will scale better with a Faith build when you infuse it to lightning since it already has a stat bonus to Faith. The trade off of course is that you cannot buff it unlike a standard or elemental Clay +10. So it really depends on what build you are running. I am currently running both, a Lightning Defender +4 (need one more petrefied bone to go to +5) and a lightning Clay +10. I use them both on long levels when one is getting close to breaking I switch to the other one.

Agreed. Defender Greatsword = Faith Claymore. ;)
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby Knight Flavie » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:15 am

After some more testing, I've had both up to +10 and infused with lightning, and then combined with sunlight blade for PVP. I reeeeally like the claymore. The reach is amazing, and just swinging it in their general direction works wonders (as with the bastard sword).

However, the Bastard Sword's R2 combo seems to catch some players off guard (is it faster than the claymore thrust?)

Greatswords in this game (not Ultra-Greatswords) are excellently balanced, in my opinion. Great attack speed (compared to the hilariously slow attack speed in Dark Souls), great poise damage, good range. I think a good advantage for newer players is, the Bastard Sword is available really early, and will carry you throughout the game if you upgrade it.

Decent for PVP, PVE, I've come to the conclusion that I should just carry both. :3

Thanks for all the wonderful input guys!
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Re: Bastard Sword or Claymore?

Postby rkzhao » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:52 am

I think I originally compared DkS1 clay to DeS mirdan hammer with a better run and roll. I would say in DkS2, it still holds a similar spot in the weapon lineup. It's one of the most beginner friendly class of weapons in both pve and pvp.
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