asagoe`s builds

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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:49 am

bialy0021 wrote: soft cap is 110 agi it seems

I call that hard cap m8, you need to put like 30 plus points into adaptability for that, might as well call the build agility something with that investment :)
Jumilaattori wrote:asa are you sentinel rank2 in ng++++ or do you just recommend 4 x wog?

You know me better than to asks silly questions like that, I have 4 wogs full stop.
Jumilaattori wrote:Have you tried other weapons than just chaos blade to every toon?

I tried every dex weapon available at 18 str 40 dex: daggers are good for backstabs, but you can nullify backstabs, so why bother? curved swords? no kilij, no kilij phantom range, no kilij moveset, no thx. spears? partizan 2handed too short, pate´s spear, you better not perform run attack - jousting time. Twinblades? stone twinblade outperforms curved twinblade on a dex toon and it is a str weapon - might go for stone twinblade dedicated build next. Thrust swords? good on paper: ricard`s sacred oath blades 400 ar, but, the guy has literally to be afk to perform a poke, hitbox is so small, roll r1 has its uses on a caster: forbidden sun - they dodge - roll r1 with fire chaos rapier stun - great combustion hit, but on pure melee, as someone with over 3000 estoc duels in des, their hitboxes are just too small to be of any use. So yeah, chaos blade for dex all the time kinda.
Jumilaattori wrote:Git guuuuud.

Can I get lucky instead?, pretty please - your constructive criticism is more than welcome in this topic, if you figured out how to improve any of these builds at 125, please share, otherwise I kindly urge you to refrain from posting, I am not derailing your build topic...
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby bialy0021 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:06 am

asagoe wrote:
bialy0021 wrote:soft cap is 110 agi it seems

I call that hard cap m8, you need to put like 30 plus points into adaptability for that, might as well call the build agility something with that investment :)

true that. still, ill stick to saying its well worth it. maybe not 110 but up to the point where you get all bonus iframes, which is the most important thing. testing that would require some equipment and a source of constant dmg (that you can take for a reasonable amount of time too :P).
item usage and shield raising time (didnt test it tbh, but i believe you :3) are just bonuses.

also, i know i mentioned it to you earlier but black with hat + southern ritual gives 4 slots afaik so that would save you 6pts on bandit (although with the loss of def).

btw. whats the cap for casting speed when using clear bluestone 2 only? soft/hard/whatever. and and what att/int/fth spread can get you there?
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Submarine_2 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:35 am

bialy0021 wrote:
asagoe wrote:
bialy0021 wrote:soft cap is 110 agi it seems

I call that hard cap m8, you need to put like 30 plus points into adaptability for that, might as well call the build agility something with that investment :)

item usage and shield raising time (didnt test it tbh, but i believe you :3) are just bonuses.

Adaptability does not increase your shield raising speed.
I have personally not noticed any difference in roll invincibility between a 38 ADP playthrough and a 3 ADP playthrough. It increases your estus chugging speed, but I have never felt like I could use that. I will go with base adaptability unless someone can prove that it gives you a reasonable amount of additional i-frames.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby bialy0021 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:13 am

you can get your proof yourself.

pve is good since no loldelay there.
get those turtle enemies and try to roll into their overhead slam with 3 adp. not past em but straight into the attack (id recommend the one close to the 3rd iron keep bf for the test). *if* you can do it without taking dmg try different timings. then get 110 agi and repeat the excercise. you get more iframes - fact. how many more and what are the breakpoints? no idea, no way to test myself.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:32 am

bialy0021 wrote:btw. whats the cap for casting speed when using clear bluestone 2 only? soft/hard/whatever. and and what att/int/fth spread can get you there?

no idea tbh, various spell tools have their own specific cast speeds, you have ring boosting speed, armor boosting speed and attunement boosting speed, so at this point i just go for spells i want and then use spell tools that deal most dmg at int/fai spread i have;)
@ sub, just to clarify, I said shield raise after a roll, there are different youtube vids that prove agility redundancy for various actions performed standalone bar flasking, like roll distance being influenced by equip burden and not agility; like I said, agility seems to improve transition speed recovery in between different actions rather than (as your vid perfectly illustrates) speed of performing an individual action (shield raising in this instance).
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby rkzhao » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:35 am

bialy0021 wrote:btw. whats the cap for casting speed when using clear bluestone 2 only? soft/hard/whatever. and and what att/int/fth spread can get you there?


From what I can see with some rough tests, it might depend on the spell. There might be something like a minimum cast time, so faster spells might stop benefiting from casting speed earlier than slower spells. Not sure.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:16 pm

150 is the new 120. There´s only a few guys clinging in the past. Just look at your megamule toons. There´s base vit and adp in each. Pretty much weapon requirements for str and dex, there´s no diversity. It´s a melting pot.

There´s 1 more stat now and none are useless like luck or resistance. Wake up.

About your 4 x wog. Hexer´s hood gives more spell usages so you can take something else than an easy predictable miracle with bad range.

Faith is a perfect example why 150 is the new SL.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Archmagician » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:58 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:150 is the new 120. There´s only a few guys clinging in the past. Just look at your megamule toons. There´s base vit and adp in each. Pretty much weapon requirements for str and dex, there´s no diversity. It´s a melting pot.

There´s 1 more stat now and none are useless like luck or resistance. Wake up.

We've been over this. It's not the same game. Vigor, Endurance and Vitality all soft cap at 20, and you quick roll at ≤70% equip burden as opposed to ≤25%, and while Adaptability isn't as useless as Resistance there's no incentive to make any investments in it when designing a competitive build. On top of that there's very little incentive to go beyond the base requirements for a weapon as far as Strength and Dexterity are concerned because going from 20/20 to 40/40 will net you +50 damage with a Claymore +10.

Furthermore, as it is now with the messed up hit-boxes and net-code as well as how imbalanced the spells are it's not even competitive enough to warrant a Meta. And a large portion of the active Dark Souls PvP community have taken a step back waiting for proper patching of the game. And players like Peeve decided to drop from 150 to 135, and there are still Twitch streamers that PvP at significantly lower levels refusing to go higher because it "breaks the game".
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:28 pm

Archmagician wrote:Vigor, Endurance and Vitality all soft cap at 20
And this is why I can´t take you seriously.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby bialy0021 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:04 pm

yh, i know that cast speed is different on different cats or that different spells have different cast time, cheers xD

what im asking about is cast speed stat displayed in the menu - iirc the number there isnt affected by equipped cats, only by your stats, clear bluestone & cast speed increasing gear (obv stat increasing gear too in case of fth/int, dunno if anything raises att stat). i remember i had like 144 w/ some lowish stats & clear bluestone 2 before respec. jumi mentioned 202 and now i see 230+ in another thread so im wondering. any info on caps/breakpoints and corresponding stats would be appreciated :)
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:21 pm

I thought catalyst speed is shown in sheet, that´s why I thought 202. I can get 235 with lion mage set. Lots of atn and int/faith and you can have 255+ quite easily.

I´m testing 193 vs 235, will let you know.
Last edited by Jumilaattori on Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Archmagician » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:22 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:
Archmagician wrote:Vigor, Endurance and Vitality all soft cap at 20
And this is why I can´t take you seriously.

Wether you choose to take me seriously or not doesn't matter, because your opinion of me does not—and will never—invalidate any piece of information I choose to present.

You've been waving the SL 150 flag since before the game was even released, and ever since then you've purposely ignored any arguments presented against it refusing to acknowledge how utterly broken the PvP is at that level, heck, the closest thing to an argument that you've presented in an attempt of a rebuttal was "git gud".

If you want to debate then adhere to rules of deductive reasoning. Because I'm not going to waste my time humoring your petty attempts of trolling.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:27 pm

^I don´t want to debate with you about anything, I´m just gonna ignore you from now on. If you want to stay at 120 that´s fine, you´re the minority. If you want to post silly stuff like 20 vgr soft cap and that pvp is broken at 150 that´s fine too.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Archmagician » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:30 pm

Jumilaattori wrote:^I don´t want to debate with you about anything,

Concession accepted.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:40 am

After gathering more pvp experience, made some changes to 2 of these toons; classic dex: 3 points from vgr to fai, to give me access to dragonslayer spear, which in fact is a dex weapon (scales A in dex when upgraded, just needs 14 fai), to be used as secondary weapon, for those situations when both duelists under 200 hp, and you do not want to risk double ko - had a 2handed katanas mirror with the situation described above, had ricard´s as secondary, already mentioned how small hitboxes are on thrust swords, ended up being xuped, raged so hard, lol. faith dex: 5 points from att to fai, to give weapons more power while buffed and post buff. Overall I think I made this build more duel friendly (Following DidoRumbus discovery about huge stamina recovery from chloranthy ring, I might swap lingering dragoncrest for it, most of my duels with this toon did not last longer than 90 secs, so this might be a good swap up to keep the pressure more easily during buff time. See you around dragon slayers!
Last edited by asagoe on Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Thaumogenesis » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:44 am

Curious on your experience with the Dragonslayer Spear. I upgraded mine to +5 (which i regret) and i had 40 dex 50 faith. The R2 attacks did something like 150 dmg to an Allone Captain. I was really sad. Plus that Spear weighs like a ton... 12lbs iirc... is that not going to be problem with the rather low vitality?
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby plaintomato » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:39 pm

I started making a longer reply to this thread and realized it's a waste of energy. I could just quote jumi and be done.

Saying ADP/Agility is useless is silly. Calling 20 VIG and 20 END caps is silly.

Agility improves i-frames and estus speed. There is no noticeable change in the roll animation, but anyone who has spent time testing it by dodging bosses at 3 ADP and 40 ADP knows additional i-frames are there. I'd like to know what the breaks are for when an i-frame is added, but I already know that they are added and make a difference.

As for estus speed, healing is a legit PVP tactic and being able to heal quickly is like having another 20 VIT or something...each time.

As a stat, ADP is in competition with VIT and VIG for good reason. It's even in competition with FAI as far as healing goes.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:37 pm

Also vitality does not cap at 20. From 20 to 30 the gains are the same 1.5 after 30 you get 1 point to equipload.

And vigor has soft cap at 50. I´m guessing that 99 vigor is 2900 HP with lifering+2

Adp also adds poise so pure physical build can get solid mitigation with 60,3 poise wearing jester´s robes.

There´s depth and diversity in the game just not at 120.

Imo the cookie cutter build is 25/25 faith int, weapon requirements. Resonant weapon + sacred oath. Havel´s chest and all the defenses around 900-1000 with other fugly pieces. SL 120 or 150 makes no difference for the cookie cutter´s performance. At 150 other builds can compete.

Edit: Also my faith build has low vitality and adp which is a sacrifice even if people don´t acknowledge it. Question is why would I want to build every toon the same way? Where is the diversity in that?
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:00 am

plaintomato wrote:healing is a legit PVP tactic and being able to heal quickly is like having another 20 VIT or something...each time.

This is just viewpoint discrepancy in between how we perceive dueling, I only heal in demon`s souls tourneys that are advocating such rules, I never heal otherwise, even in situations 2vs1, 3vs1...in my opinion it just adds to the length of the fights and removing the damage taken is kinda silly imo (there is a separate skill of knowing when and how to heal without taking damage). Such tryharding was rarely seen on EU, and taken to the extreme, someone keen on not dying, could make a fight very very long, and I do not think many would consider such fights worthy of their time.
plaintomato wrote:As a stat, ADP is in competition with VIT and VIG for good reason.

Nothing competes with vgr.
Thaumogenesis wrote:Curious on your experience with the Dragonslayer Spear. I upgraded mine to +5 (which i regret) and i had 40 dex 50 faith. The R2 attacks did something like 150 dmg to an Allone Captain. I was really sad. Plus that Spear weighs like a ton... 12lbs iirc... is that not going to be problem with the rather low vitality?

I use Aurous hands and legs on that toon, vit not a problem; R2s scale with faith, and it has C faith scaling ... R2 is just a gimmick...I used it 2handed to finish my opponents off, jury is still out on whether it is going to stay my secondary weapon.
Jumilaattori wrote:Question is why would I want to build every toon the same way? Where is the diversity in that?

Well, if from does not change something pretty fast, build making is dead... soul memory is the king, soul level irrelevant, soul level 100 soul memory 15mil can fight soul level 99 everything with the same soul memory. Aside from arenas, it seems most action is above 10 mil soul memory ng+, irrespective of soul level...
Regarding vitality and adaptability: casters gain no real benefit from vit, it is lion mage, hexer`hood etc. and adaptability not really crucial for casters either. Where is the diversity if every build has 50 vgr, 20 end, 29 vit, 39 adp?
Out of curiosity, what exactly beats sl 150 swordsman (49-20-4-20-10-16-6-39-39) resonant weapon dark uchi, affinity, great resonant soul, cast affinity, while you try to dodge, I spam great resonant soul, if you come near me I got resonant weapon dark uchi...how many builds are actually packing profound still? Why use any other build at arbitrary sl 150?
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Jumilaattori » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:51 am

asagoe wrote:Regarding vitality and adaptability: casters gain no real benefit from vit, it is lion mage, hexer`hood etc. and adaptability not really crucial for casters either. Where is the diversity if every build has 50 vgr, 20 end, 29 vit, 39 adp?
Every build don´t have those stats at 150, in fact only pure dex or str have such stats.

asagoe wrote:Out of curiosity, what exactly beats sl 150 swordsman (49-20-4-20-10-16-6-39-39) resonant weapon dark uchi, affinity, great resonant soul, cast affinity, while you try to dodge, I spam great resonant soul, if you come near me I got resonant weapon dark uchi...how many builds are actually packing profound still? Why use any other build at arbitrary sl 150?
My faithsword has gmb and profound still. You can´t cast. I mitigate more dmg. I buried guys like that deep with my faith. You just don´t seem to understand the depth in this game. Again you give stats with base vitality and ADP. Affinitity is also weak with just 39 int.

We can duel today. I´ll use pure dex below 25% with high adp. Let´s see how many spells you can spam. After that I´ll reroll to pyromancer and we can rematch.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:28 am

Edited my pure melee build, like 12 soul vessels used and a lot of different combinations tried, finally settled for conqueror powerstanced chaos blades and invisible raw avelyn, even managed to beat climax spammer - seriously how do you manage to spam climax?, very fun pure melee build; tried twinblades, cannot find the way to get hyper armor on them at 125, no hyper on twinblades - not competitive, is it me or is run bs dead?, landed some roll bs against magic users, but run bs seems to me really difficult unless they are not afk, which makes these backpedaling great shield halberds very difficult to beat with pure melee build, other than that, might swap thorns for chloranthy, thorns seems to be nerfed really hard.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby bialy0021 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:02 pm

this one? 46/19/17/2/25/40/20/1/8

no oath, eh? still on the fence with it myself.
50ar is huge and def boost is nice too but that ring slot is valuable... therefore i was testing 20att instead.
might seem like a big investment but its actually not, considering i went adp as well (and so did you i see).
its 10att + ring slot or 20att. 10att more lets you lower adp for like 4 pts which makes southern ritual a slightly better ring of prayer/knowledge - imho not worth it (ritual is obv much better on higher att builds since stats per slot go way up).

av is great but a lot of its effectiveness comes from the fact that people dont really know how to deal with it, panic or dont expect it (invisi must be funny). as long as its not close range you can sidestep it all day long (powerstanced too) but most try to rollspam. the fact that it can put you into a mild standstill is another thing entirely.

whats your agi? 93? and the ar on chaos blades w/o blades2?
ill be remaking mine and cant let you outAR me with lolcatz now can i? :P
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby rkzhao » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:38 pm

bialy0021 wrote:this one? 46/19/17/2/25/40/20/1/8


mine: 50/20/11/2/11/40/22/1/8

screw lolcatz, it's all bout dat lolspada and lolwhips now. :P

If I feel like leveling it up to 120, I'll add in oath. If I feel like leveling it up to 150, I might raise str to 13 for powerstance spotted, and might as well get maxed agility and higher stamina.

10 att gets you 2 more agility than 2 att. it's 1 agility for every 4 att, where as adp is 3 agility per 4 adp so iirc 10att and 22adp is 99 agility.
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby Parhelion » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:05 pm

I'm just going to leave this video of BS tactics here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTwMhBWdTY
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Re: asagoe`s builds

Postby asagoe » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:09 am

Parhelion wrote:I'm just going to leave this video of BS tactics here:

Thx for posting this, it was the other video from the same poster that helped me understand why I am finding it easier to land roll bs than run bs, but this one was interesting to watch as well.
Edited faith dex, due to the fact that dragon chime has superior initial casting speed than protective chime, the cast speed actually remains the same with the swap but the increase in dmg is more than worth putting another 10 points into faith, (essentially trading thorns for southern ritual). On the topic of thorns, from my experience post nerf it no longer is worth a ring slot, so not much of a sacrifice there.
b got the answers to his questions in chat, but others might want to know, so here it goes:
bialy0021 wrote:no oath, eh?

elemental buffs hit harder, last longer, oath would still be nice, but the number of situations where it would actually pay off (essentially against other pure melee builds) does not merit stat investment imo. - edited again, managed to squeze oath in. ;)
bialy0021 wrote:whats your agi? 93? and the ar on chaos blades w/o blades2?

agility is 100 now, chaos blade with blades still has the same ar of 379.
All three: 40% (buffs are additive) Are you sure about stamina buffs stacking Dido, there are some contradicting views on this, and what about something like great magic barrier and green blossom, do they override?
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