How is the pvp in this game?

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How is the pvp in this game?

Postby eklad » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:39 pm

Its been a while since I have played any dark souls, played quite a bit of dks pvp but never really got into dks 2 pvp. With the release of the ps4 edition soon (and bloodborne), was just wondering how is the pvp in this game? Whats the agreed Soul level? How is backstabs - still broken as dks 1 or closer to Demons? Is meleeing (if that's even a word) back or is it just one backstab after another?

By the way asking about higher level pvp, soul level 120?? bowing etc, not invading at lower levels
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby ToolsIdol » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:14 pm

It's been awhile since I logged into DkS2, but as I remember it the BSing is nowhere near as broken as DkS. Combat is still not as fluid as DeS tho. :(
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Juli » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:57 am

Backstabs are so weak that I wield my main weapon (usually an Estoc) in the off-hand to prevent myself from being able to backstab. SL 150 is the most commonly agreed upon level, but matchmaking is done through Soul Memory now, so some people just completely ignore any level cap and you'll still get matched with them.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:32 pm

PvP in DKS2 is similar to rubbing sand paper across your "laryngitis". For some it can be an enjoyable euphoric experience, filled with orgasmic ecstasy (typically the tears and rage of a thousand dying babies and cats), for the more honor-bound crowd it can be somewhat laughably trollish, almost absurd due to some major flaws in its design.

-backstabs are useless, forced animations
-motion tracking
-iframes beyond broken even after patching
-magic is either super op or generally useless (even worse in DKS2 than in other installments)
-movement feels gimped, controls are not precise.

- soul memory (anything beyond normal game is asking to get trolled)

-numerous other things i forgot to list

That being said i love the game and PvE is the best in DKS2...imho.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Cam » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:17 am

PvP in DkSII is.. Different.

Backstabs are generally weak, but not useless. For one thing, backstabs are a down for your opponent, the ball's in your court for a wakeup attack. Alternatively, if you know your opponent will just roll away, you can sprint into them and time an attack mid-roll. Backstabs do waste time when you miss them, but chances are your opponent would roll through an R1 anyways. It's usually better to hit them with a delayed R2, to hit them once again between the i-frames of their roll.

Tracking is really inconsistent. Certain weapons and attacks have tracking, some don't. Tracking is annoying and it feels cheap, but it's something you get over after some time.

Generally, a person with higher i-frames is going to be a clumsy player. People with lower i-frames need to roll tighter in order to survive. This is just a generalization, but timing your R1s and R2s properly is the way you should be attacking, regardless of their i-frames. Knowing when and how long to delay your R1s will always catch people through their rolls.

I don't know much about magic, but it requires proper timing just like anything else in PvP. If you toss fireballs out haphazardly, you won't even hit anybody's shadow. You need to time it, and use your repertoire of casts cleverly in conjunction with eachother.

I find the controls to be superior to DkS and DS. You can sprint in any direction while locked on, and you can roll in any direction while locked on. The character animations feel floaty and weightless, but that's got nothing to do with the controls.


PSST!
Soul memory is actually not a big deal at all. Whether you have high SM or low SM, the major hot spots as well as the arena will always have fish to catch. Unless the agape ring ruins this by more or less unifying most of the general populace into a particular tier, but that's hopefully a bit of a stretch.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby BertoSan » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:58 am

Cam wrote:PSST!
Soul memory is actually not a big deal at all. Whether you have high SM or low SM, the major hot spots as well as the arena will always have fish to catch. Unless the agape ring ruins this by more or less unifying most of the general populace into a particular tier, but that's hopefully a bit of a stretch.


^this. After a year I've still not found soul memory to affect my PvP experience in the slightest bit.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby lylebot » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:06 pm

I sucked at PvP in Dark Souls 1 (never won a fight!), so take this as you will, but I think it's great. I actually win sometimes! I'm not getting one-shot by phantoms who aren't anywhere near me! I've been having a lot of fun in Belfry Sol the last few days.

Again, grain of salt, I'm no expert at PvP, I'm sure Bell Keepers is not where the experts go for PvP, etc, etc. But I'm having way more fun with it than I ever did in DkS1.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:27 am

As far as Backstabs are concerned, I feel that the entire mechanic is just sloppily done, not a single time while playing DKS2 have I felt I ever landed a backstab that felt appropriate nor have I ever particularly felt like I was backstabbed fairly. It just feels like a tacked on mechanic, they tried to fix it and prevent it from being abused like it was in previous installments by adding in the startup animation when behind your opponent, but in most cases it just feels clumsy and it looks terrible when both players are moving and going through the motions, even worse than it did in DKS.

Tracking is very consistent in it's inconsistency, sometimes it causes you to turn while swinging with a claymore and hit a wall and then other times it will track your opponent and hit them from completely unintentional angles (dual claymore setup I'm looking at you). I've been playing DKS2 since release and this mechanic has never sat well with me, either when fighting PvE or in PvP it's just poorly done and forces you to play around it.

I-frames are something i'm not really going to touch on, yes someone that relies on I-frames will be lazier, but a good player with high I-frames will always be broken, they were not good in previous games but just downright broken in DKS2, it's another mechanic, like tracking, that forces you to play around it and makes the long term tradition of souls games being a roll spam exhaustion test and amplifies it by a thousand.

Magic in DKS2 is hit or miss. Sorcery is completely irrelevant for PvP unless you use it as bait only, a well timed arrow can do massive damage to an opponent but it's chances of landing in any serious PvP encounter is slim to none which is just bad design especially when the stat investment towards sorcery is quite weighty. That being said pyromancy and hexes feel just about right after numerous patches and I feel they have improved this mechanic a lot, however, the haphazard approach with speedcasted resonant soul is still a great strat in forcing your opponent to get closer to you and hits far too hard for its very small casting speed and cost, it remains the most broken offensive spell in souls history bar glitched casting.

Controls in DKS2 feel great for PvE, your character feels a lot heavier and slower on the uptake, PvE combat feels more satisfying in DKS2 than it does previous games, the variety of weapons and attacks are vast and feel slightly unique. However as far as PvP goes, the controls just lack the precision to be considered truly competitive, they are purposely clumsy and make for many mistakes that would not have been made otherwise. I can't really tell if it was bad programming on tracking, if it was created on purpose to be stiff or just an unhealthy combination of both. But in PvP I just don't feel the expert motions I felt in DKS, while DKS2 is by no means terrible, it is two steps backwards in this area and was obviously not their main focus for this installment of the series. Heres hoping Bloodbourne changes that.

Cam wrote:PSST!
Soul memory is actually not a big deal at all. Whether you have high SM or low SM, the major hot spots as well as the arena will always have fish to catch. Unless the agape ring ruins this by more or less unifying most of the general populace into a particular tier, but that's hopefully a bit of a stretch.


I really can't follow you on this one, it makes no sense to me how SM has not affected you at all. If I can recall one complaint anyone has ever made about DKS2 since release it was nothing I mentioned above it was ONE thing. That one thing being Soul Memory It forces you to either keep in range with those you want to play with or find a means to collect as many souls as possible and play with anyone at almost any level in that range. It's ridiculous and not much thought was put into this system. "Supposedly" it was made this way to stop griefing, this makes no sense to me as all it did was force low level players to get invaded by maxed out players, effectively making the problem worse. Oh and effects much more than PvP it greatly impacts your ability to play with your friends without jumping through hoops. I'm not saying that it can't be circumvented but it's a huge problem with the game that groups players in a way that makes very little sense. Yes you can find anyone at any soul range but they aren't always the people you want to play with, not everyone is into the casual "meh ill just find someone in arena" approach as it makes for many very bad PvP encounters full of boring troll fests. This is why most of the really good PvP happens in normal game, before Soul Memory becomes pants on head retarded.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Cam » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:19 pm

Magicisoverrated wrote:As far as Backstabs are concerned, I feel that the entire mechanic is just sloppily done, not a single time while playing DKS2 have I felt I ever landed a backstab that felt appropriate nor have I ever particularly felt like I was backstabbed fairly. It just feels like a tacked on mechanic, they tried to fix it and prevent it from being abused like it was in previous installments by adding in the startup animation when behind your opponent, but in most cases it just feels clumsy and it looks terrible when both players are moving and going through the motions, even worse than it did in DKS.

Sure, it looks clumsy, but it isn't a useless function. As for never landing a single backstab that you thought was visually appropriate, I have to assume you're exaggerating just a smidgen.

Magicisoverrated wrote:Tracking is very consistent in it's inconsistency, sometimes it causes you to turn while swinging with a claymore and hit a wall and then other times it will track your opponent and hit them from completely unintentional angles (dual claymore setup I'm looking at you). I've been playing DKS2 since release and this mechanic has never sat well with me, either when fighting PvE or in PvP it's just poorly done and forces you to play around it.

Just because the angle looks off doesn't mean the collision detection is inconsistent. It just means the system itself works on different terms than you'd imagine. Tracking is weapon and, further, move-dependent. You can test it yourself on an open platform, which weapons and attacks track, and which don't.

Magicisoverrated wrote:I-frames are something i'm not really going to touch on, yes someone that relies on I-frames will be lazier, but a good player with high I-frames will always be broken, they were not good in previous games but just downright broken in DKS2, it's another mechanic, like tracking, that forces you to play around it and makes the long term tradition of souls games being a roll spam exhaustion test and amplifies it by a thousand.

I don't see how it's any different than Dark Souls. There are different tiers of i-frames, naturally there will be many different skill levels. This is unavoidable. It doesn't mean that some lowest tier can't beat the top tier. Skill is still the highest deciding factor of who wins, because it's a factor that's not governed by in-game variables.

Magicisoverrated wrote:Magic in DKS2 is hit or miss. Sorcery is completely irrelevant for PvP unless you use it as bait only, a well timed arrow can do massive damage to an opponent but it's chances of landing in any serious PvP encounter is slim to none which is just bad design especially when the stat investment towards sorcery is quite weighty. That being said pyromancy and hexes feel just about right after numerous patches and I feel they have improved this mechanic a lot, however, the haphazard approach with speedcasted resonant soul is still a great strat in forcing your opponent to get closer to you and hits far too hard for its very small casting speed and cost, it remains the most broken offensive spell in souls history bar glitched casting.

Some spells are more broadly effective than others, this is the same principle of arms, as well. I don't think you really got the gist of what I was trying to say. Everything in the PvP realm can be worked around. Not that there aren't flaws, just that the flaws don't break the game like you seem to think they do.

Magicisoverrated wrote:Controls in DKS2 feel great for PvE, your character feels a lot heavier and slower on the uptake, PvE combat feels more satisfying in DKS2 than it does previous games, the variety of weapons and attacks are vast and feel slightly unique. However as far as PvP goes, the controls just lack the precision to be considered truly competitive, they are purposely clumsy and make for many mistakes that would not have been made otherwise. I can't really tell if it was bad programming on tracking, if it was created on purpose to be stiff or just an unhealthy combination of both. But in PvP I just don't feel the expert motions I felt in DKS, while DKS2 is by no means terrible, it is two steps backwards in this area and was obviously not their main focus for this installment of the series. Heres hoping Bloodbourne changes that.

If you think PvE feels great, then I can only deduce that your issue with controls in PvP lies in the latency, and it's always been a problem. The only thing you can do is live with it.


Magicisoverrated wrote:
Cam wrote:PSST!
Soul memory is actually not a big deal at all. Whether you have high SM or low SM, the major hot spots as well as the arena will always have fish to catch. Unless the agape ring ruins this by more or less unifying most of the general populace into a particular tier, but that's hopefully a bit of a stretch.
I really can't follow you on this one, it makes no sense to me how SM has not affected you at all. If I can recall one complaint anyone has ever made about DKS2 since release it was nothing I mentioned above it was ONE thing. That one thing being Soul Memory It forces you to either keep in range with those you want to play with or find a means to collect as many souls as possible and play with anyone at almost any level in that range. It's ridiculous and not much thought was put into this system. "Supposedly" it was made this way to stop griefing, this makes no sense to me as all it did was force low level players to get invaded by maxed out players, effectively making the problem worse. Oh and effects much more than PvP it greatly impacts your ability to play with your friends without jumping through hoops. I'm not saying that it can't be circumvented but it's a huge problem with the game that groups players in a way that makes very little sense. Yes you can find anyone at any soul range but they aren't always the people you want to play with, not everyone is into the casual "meh ill just find someone in arena" approach as it makes for many very bad PvP encounters full of boring troll fests. This is why most of the really good PvP happens in normal game, before Soul Memory becomes pants on head retarded.

Well, all the people I've wanted to play with just met at the highest SM tier, and that just made interaction pretty simple for me. This doesn't apply to PvE white phantom summoning, of course, but that's hardly relevant to how SM affects me in PvP.
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Re: How is the pvp in this game?

Postby Magicisoverrated » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:02 am

Cam wrote:Sure, it looks clumsy, but it isn't a useless function. As for never landing a single backstab that you thought was visually appropriate, I have to assume you're exaggerating just a smidgen.


I'm not actually. It's a bad mechanic and was a bad mechanic in every other installment. This is my opinion of course, but we do have this thing called general consensus for that. Maybe some people actually enjoyed early DKS pvp and wanted to keep some semblance of it in DKS2

Cam wrote:Just because the angle looks off doesn't mean the collision detection is inconsistent. It just means the system itself works on different terms than you'd imagine. Tracking is weapon and, further, move-dependent. You can test it yourself on an open platform, which weapons and attacks track, and which don't..


The point was tracking is a very awkward mechanic that can be adapted to, it does work different than one would imagine and that was the point I was making. so I think we are in agreement?

Cam wrote:I don't see how it's any different than Dark Souls. There are different tiers of i-frames, naturally there will be many different skill levels. This is unavoidable. It doesn't mean that some lowest tier can't beat the top tier. Skill is still the highest deciding factor of who wins, because it's a factor that's not governed by in-game variables...


Out of all three souls titles in DKS2 "skill" has the smallest impact, that doesn't mean I don't agree, that a low skill level player can beat a higher skill level player and in all honesty souls games do not take very long to get good at, it's mostly tactics and build that determine the win at that point, and it is precisely at that point when iframes are noticeably mandatory to have on the best pvp builds. I-frames while not different than they were in any other game in functionality are most broken in this installment.


Cam wrote:Some spells are more broadly effective than others, this is the same principle of arms, as well. I don't think you really got the gist of what I was trying to say. Everything in the PvP realm can be worked around. Not that there aren't flaws, just that the flaws don't break the game like you seem to think they do.


Not any one single thing breaks DKS2, it's a combination of many things, but when it comes to magic I actually agree with this.


Cam wrote:If you think PvE feels great, then I can only deduce that your issue with controls in PvP lies in the latency, and it's always been a problem. The only thing you can do is live with it..


Again, the issue with PvP isn't any one thing, the latency does not help at all but just because one has to live with a problem doesn't mean it should be accepted and ignored, voicing opinion of terrible mechanics brings awareness to them and hopefully a fix for later souls games that I will also inevitably play and PvP in.


Cam wrote:Well, all the people I've wanted to play with just met at the highest SM tier, and that just made interaction pretty simple for me. This doesn't apply to PvE white phantom summoning, of course, but that's hardly relevant to how SM affects me in PvP.


Not really addressing why the mechanic is bad, the problem with SM is it can actively work against you in early and late stages of the game, it can be circumvented and after awhile you learn to ignore the trolls that abuse the SM system, but it made for terrible first impressions to any first time player, and continues to be a thorn in your side if you're not paying attention or trying to help someone else through the game.


You should not walk away reading this post thinking I dislike DKS2. It did PvE the best, has fleshed out lore and while I think PvP doesn't hold a candle to the other installments I had a lot of fun with it both abusing it and just experimenting. I play it to this day, that does not mean that I don't believe the game took two steps backwards in many areas that still make no sense to me other than to simulate difficulty and just let players who PvP work around it's flaws.
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