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Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:33 am
by Rifter7

while this might not interest you... some people prefer an appealing aesthetic choice as well, but will compromise on mixed pieces to boost the defensive values.

to some, it's a psychological boost. their character looks, to them at least, cool or interesting. some people don't care if their character looks like a scarecrow hit by a car, but to others it can actually make them play better despite having lower defensive values if the avatar looks like a badass.

i mean.. think about fps's that have assassination like cutscenes, or a crazy combo chain in a fighter that takes a lot of skill to do. sure it might not be optimal or more effective, but anyone that's done these may have noticed what i was talking about. like a sudden boost in skill.

if you were looking for something to footnote, that may be a good choice.

Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:49 am
by Jman1988
The orphan combo thread should partially address this. As for fully addressing this issue, I can only do so much. People have different tastes, so it's a sissyphean pursuit to try to list all the possible cool-looking armors that everyone would approve. I'll leave it to the individual to adjust the optimized combos to their individual tastes, especially the 0 poise pieces.

Rifter7 wrote:some people don't care if their character looks like a scarecrow hit by a car


Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:01 am
by Rifter7
oh yeah, of course.
it's impossible to tell someone what they'd like and it'd probably defeat the point of your thread too..

but at the same time.. if you look at civilizations new or old and the certain designs they use for their armies, or at how certain sports have teams that chant or dance or celebrate depending on the sport through out the game, or how fighters will pick a name and persona.. i mean i could go on and on..

basically what i'm getting at is if you can psyche yourself up, be it some emote you do, a way you look, fight or whatever- it might help you and maybe even intimidate your opponent. who knows, maybe that's better than a few more points into defense or magic, you know?

i don't have any proof or anything, though, and i'm kind of taking this off topic so i'll just leave it at that hahah.

:gp: either way!

Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:16 am
by Jman1988
Alrighty, it's done! The last update I wanted to do, before working on the Orphan thread, for formatting reasons.

I added another rule (currently Rule 4). It's small, but I think worth mentioning. Does anyone disagree?

I added a 21+ poise table. I'm honestly surprised that I even bothered with it, because I find the breakpoint to be really bad, but I really felt like making a 21+ poise table in the orphan thread. I don't know why, maybe some DWGR players will consider the combos in that table. In any case, it's more content, and it ended up decluttering the 61+ poise a little bit (I made adjustments to that table, in regards to Wolf Ring combos), so it's not the worst thing I've done.

I replaced Catarina Gauntlets + Black Iron Leggings with Black Knight Gauntlets + Giant Leggings. I'm really surprised that anything from the Black Knight Set made an appearance in the OP, but yeah, a project like this is bound to have surprises. Anyway, these combos have an extremely close comparison, but in the end, by a very slim margin, I just can't endorse an extra 0.4 weight for the amount of defense gained with Catarina/BI. Again, it's really really close, and I am a little uncomfortable taking Catarina/BI off the list, but I am more uncomfortable keeping BK/Giant off it the list.

This got me thinking: While the BI Set is great, there is one thing I kind of resent about it: The curse resistance. It's nice, but looking at the numbers, I feel like the weight is slightly adjusted because of the presence of curse resistance. I'm not saying that curse resistance shouldn't be on any armors... I'm just saying that it stay away from really efficient sets that I like. :cry:

Oh well, in any case, share your thoughts if you have any.

Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:59 am
by johanlh
This is a great post!, thank you very much.

Re: Optimized PTD armor combos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:21 pm
by Jman1988
Small change. I changed the name of this thread to from Optimized PTD armor combos to Optimized Armor Combos.

I initially made this list because there was a lot of questions about how to make good armor combos after the release of PTD (or patch 1.06, if you prefer), but this list is just as useful to people without PTD as it is to people with PTD. In fact, the list doesn't even happen to contain any PTD set pieces! This fact makes the old name a little ironic. So there you have it.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:58 am
by Jman1988
Made a couple of changes to the OP, nothing big.

First off, I removed Rule 4. Yeah, I know just added it, and it was a good piece of advice, but it was pretty much irrelevent to the content or objective of this list. I decided to get rid of it, to keep the rules of the list... more relevent to the list. And boy, I'm really happy with how much less clutter there is in the OP.

Secondly, I condensed Rule 3a and Rule 3b into Rule 3. Before, I had just recommended Dingy Robe as a 0 poise chest piece, Maiden Skirt as 0 poise leggings, and listed some of the most competitive 0 poise gloves. Now, I listed the most competitive 0 poise pieces from all three categories, while still shedding some spotlight on Maiden Skirt and Dingy Robe, and I was able to reduce the size of the OP, to make it easier to digest. I suppose it came at a price, though. I had descriptions to go along with the 0 poise gloves for why they were efficient and appealing, and how they compared to eachother. I spent a good chunk of time writing them, and I liked them, but it did create some clutter, and more importantly, there was another reason...

Like multiple of my last updates, I primarily made this update for the purpose of better formatting the upcoming orphan combo thread. I haven't touched that project in a couple of weeks, because I was busy with other stuff, but I'm getting back to it now. Hopefully I'll get most or all of in the next couple of days (it's ~40% done). Anyway I list some 0 poise headpieces that give efficient defenses in that thread, but I really couldn't bare to create deep and/or hardcore descriptions and comparisons between them, because Jesus Christ, they're basically all the same weight and defense. :evil: It would come off as some extreme nitpicking, so instead of having to deal with that, I just got rid of the descriptions in this thread.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:18 pm
by Jman1988
As I'm writing the new thread (~60% done), I'm starting myself a hard question: Should I remove my flavor text that I've added to the combos?

Is the gesture appreciated? I suspect that it's relatively appreciated, but even then, is it really all that helpful? Or rather, would it be more helpful to remove them than to keep them?

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:17 pm
by Tsmp
I'd say keep them around, so long as they remain non-biased and relevant. Giving just the raw data may be a bit much for players who aren't that familiar with the systems yet.

On a slightly unrelated note, I heard a claymore's two-handed running R1 -> R2 -> R2 stunlocks for those three hits. Would that be worth getting 55 poise to defend against, you think?

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:10 pm
by Aoineko13
Maybe I've missed it, but I didn't see anywhere in the op about how some gloves and leggings are identical stat wise. For some combos while going with the gloves over the boots allows the 0 poise item to be the maiden skirt which is much more effective then any 0 poise glove, gloves are also lighter, which means you might be able to squeeze what is (essentially) the same combo into a build that can't afford the weight of the skirt or other leggings, which tend to weigh more then gloves.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:03 am
by Jman1988
@Tsmp Honestly, I never even considered 2H running R1 -> 2HR2 -> 2HR2, since 2H running R1 -> 2HR1 has served me pretty well. It's a highly specific threat though; one specific weapon (albeit not obscure) from one weapon type. I don't think it's worth making any stat changes or weapon changes for, but if you just happen to have some spare weight because of a weapon switch, and this attack chain is really a big concern, then I guess it will probably not cost you much extra weight.

A light combo to reach that mark would be Giant/Catarina/HSW. A heavy one would be Giant/Giant/Maiden. In the middle of that spectrum are Dingy/Havel/Havel and BI/BI/HSW. Hmm. I should take a look at BI/BI/HWW for the 53+ table.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:18 am
by Jman1988
@Aoineko Among 0 poise armors, non-skirt leggings tend to be identical to the gloves. Additionally, all heavy sets (ones where all the pieces have stamina regen penalties) except for Black Knight Set and Hawkeye Gough Set have identical gloves and leggings. You might note that, aside from the Maiden Skirt, all the other highly efficient 0 poise leggings are not skirts. I suspect from your post that you knew all or some of that, but I'm enunciating it for purpose of illustrating the following point. The point is, however, really difficult to read. I apologize in advance, and will be using font utilities to reduce the ambiguity of my grammer. :?

In combos that use 0 poise leggings and derive poise from gloves that have identical leggings (i.e. Giant Gauntlets + Brigand Boots), there is rarely any reason to derive poise from the leggings instead.

If you are still alive after reading that, then my nefarious scheme failed. I will go onto Plan B, and buttress my claim: It's not usually true that "gloves are lighter than leggings", in highly efficient combos. Aside from Maiden Skirt, you will find that all the efficient leggings are identical to the weight of glove counterpart. Since there is rarely a case that switching the 0 poise leggings for 0 poise gloves will achieve a lower weight (if you are being highly efficient), the incentive for 0 poise gloves is practically non-existent. The incentive for 0 poise leggings is, of course, highly "existent".

It isn't worth making a tremendously nuanced rule over such a small, if not irrelevent matter. It's probably far too advanced an observation for beginners, a waste of time for veterans, and a headache for both. Plus, while it was initially my ambition to use the OP to teach about efficient set-ups (Rule 1 is an artifact of this), I found that there was simply too much to discuss. In lieu of that, remember this: Part of becoming better at anything at some point involves learning from and/or imitating the masters. It might help some of the less keen and experienced to see something catered to the best and brightest.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:52 am
by Juli

I have found our Messiah. A build for which the most optimal armor combos involve Eastern Gauntlets.

Re: Optimized Armor Combos

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:37 pm
by Crab Rangoon
Saturday-Saint wrote:

I have found our Messiah. A build for which the most optimal armor combos involve Eastern Gauntlets.

No Dark Hand? What's wrong with you?