Buildmaking Tools and Tips

Post your builds up here! You can also discuss the various characters and enemies of Lordran!

Buildmaking Tools and Tips

Postby mmghouse » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:27 am

I started this thread as a reference piece for people looking to make builds, focusing on tools available. I thought I'd try to consolidate the tools with tips people might have. Add tips or tools below and I'll add them here as I see fit. The aim is to give some tips that will help orient people wanting to make competitive PVP builds. Your comments are welcome.

TOOLS:

The following are all tools people have used effectively to help the calculate the best stats, the best weapons and the best armors for the builds they want to make. The dedication put into these tools is amazing, and any of the build-crafters on these forums can tell you how invaluable one or more of them are.

Please note, I can take no credit for any of these tools. I am merely replacing an old sticky with an updated one to include new tools. On that note, if any of you notice serious problems with any of these tools, or the links stop working, or they become outdated, or you find other useful tools for build creation or optimizing stats or setups, please post in this sticky and I'll make changes to this post to keep people in the know.

Thanks.


nemesismonkey's Dark Souls Character Creator. http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/

This is THE tool to use, and it was made and is constantly improved by our very own nemesismonkey, who has a wonderful character planner. This single link can help you: (1) pick the most efficient class for the stats you need; (2) optimize your armor, giving you poise and every defense total for the armor you choose and indicating whether you will fast-roll, mid-roll or fat-roll given your current armor, endurance and rings; (3) provide AR listings for weapons you choose (of any path) and mag. adj. listings of spell tools given your stats; (4) help you plan what you will put in your attunement slots.


Inside the following spoiler you can find other links, but I'm not sure how up to date they are (patch 1.06 changed some important things, so tread carefully). Mud-chan's site deserves an outside-the-spoiler mention so check it out, it has some other tools that are still quite useful beyond what the above tool does.
1. mud-chan and others' Dark Soul Stats site. https://sites.google.com/site/darksoulstats/home
(Includes several different tools, including more detailed AR breakdowns for weapons based on stats you enter, and armor comparison tools, and a class selection tool that was what I used the most until nemesismonkey's came around)

2. itsthatguy's Character Builder. http://darksouls.itsthatguy.com/
(similar to nemesismonkey's tool. Has been around longer, but it may have been abandoned. Does not include as many tools as nemesismonkey's, or the level of detail found in the mud-chan site. I can't say it's obsolete, however, because I honestly have not played around with it much or made comparisons)

3. Non-web-based tool for armor calculations. http://www.mediafire.com/?8fx5nk4st9q01k9
I tested it out, it nicely sorts by up to three options, and had lots of organizational options. Again, could be better if it sorted by poise breakpoints, but it was still quite useful. I recommend narrowing down your armor and using the advanced armor options to fix the armor pieces you know you'll use to find that one last piece of armor.


Quick links to other useful posts in the forum:
EWGF's List of poise breakpoints: http://forums.demonssouls.info/viewtopi ... 76&t=14822
Jman's List of optimized armor combos: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=16115

TIPS:

  • Take a look at some of the many other builds posts out there. Be aware that posts made before October of this year may not be optimized for PVP following patch 1.06, which nerfed DWGR and elementals and hornet ring, among a few other changes, and none will have taken into consideration the new spells in the DLC, some of which are quite competitive.
  • These days, there are several different SL caps. The large majority of serious PVPers make builds for either SL100 or SL125. SL100 builds can participate in the DLC arena matches for 51-100 builds and 125 can compete in standard invasions/summons. The arena also offers duel opportunities from 1-50 and 101-200 and 200+, so you might consider making an SL50 or an SL200 build, but those duels tend to be less common because there's either not enough variety or too much (let alone the hassle of hitting SL200). SL125s don't fare too poorly in SL200 arena, but they clearly aren't optimized. TL;DR: you'll probably want to make your builds either SL100 (for arena) or SL120-25 (for standard invasions/summons/hosting)
  • Learn about stat scaling, defense and, this last one is very important: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ATTACK RATING (AR) AND DAMAGE. Let me go over this quickly.
    • Weapons scale more or less depending on their scaling "letter" or "letters". Weapons that scale indicate a letter in a certain slot. So a Claymore has C/C/-/- and a Manserpent Greatsword has B/-/-/-. What this means is that claymore scales less effectively, but with both strength and dex, and an MSGS scales more effectively, but only with strength. Note that you must also consider base AR. A higher letter in scaling isn't always going to get you higher AR or damage, even at high stat points. Great club vs. large club is a good example. Great Club+15 scales A with strength and has 335 base AR. Large club+15 scales a "higher" A (that's right, even within letters, there's better and worse scaling) with strength but has 300 base damage. Even at 40 str, great club does slightly better.
    • Sometimes weapons with lower AR will land higher damage than higher AR weapons. AR=/=Damage! Damage is the actual amount of HP you take away from your opponent, which is what really matters. AR is essentially how much damage your weapon would do to someone with 0 defense whatsoever. People often open up their weapon stats screens or use one of the calculators to compare weapons and are taken by how high the numbers look for elemental weapons (chaos, lightning, fire). They may look better at minimum stats than a 40-stat equivalent of the +15 weapons. But they don't do as much damage. That is because that AR is SPLIT in half, with half going toward elemental-based damage and the other half going toward physical damage. When you land a hit on the opponent, the half of the AR going toward physical damage is reduced by their physical defenses and the half going toward elemental damage is reduced by their elemental defenses. People call this "going through two defenses," for obvious reasons. Pure physical weapons, just like pure magical weapons, can do more damage at lower ARs because they only get reduced by one type of defense. There is one caveat. The split AR of elementals, etc. is not as affected during backstabs or ripostes and actually compete damage-wise with +15 weapons at proper stats.
  • This one is a bit more detailed. Learn what the important stat cutoff points are for your weapon or spell of interest. This includes learning what the minimum stats are to 1-hand or 2-hand the weapons you want as well as learning where diminishing returns kick in. For this second point, know that, as a general rule, diminishing returns kick in for stats at 40. There really aren't any exceptions to this, but aside from achieving certain minimum stat requirements, there are five ways people deviate from leaving a stat point at 40:
    1. Vitality. Diminished return from 40 to 50 isn't as important as the added survivability between those two. Also, and this is something more prevalent now than in DeS, going above 50 has increased value because to partially counter the effect of the diminished returns beyond 40 and especially 50, Mask of Mother and Ring of Favor and Protection offer a percentage-based increase to HP.
    2. Endurance. 40 endurance is a hard cap for stamina, but Dark Souls offers valuable reasons to go above 40 endurance: the importance of armor. People will increase endurance to be able to add armor with especially good poise, defense, or both (Giant's+ mask of mother is a common goal). The math can be a bit tricky because you need to factor in the equip weight bonus from ring of favor and protection. Or use one of the tools above. :)
    3. Strength. Almost all of the weapons that scale well with strength stats or require high strength have crappy, arguably worthless 1-handed movesets (large club and bkgaxe are two exceptions, imo). And here's the important point: unlike other stats, by 2-handing your weapon, you effectively increase your strength stat 1.5x. What this means is, you hit diminishing returns at 27 strength. If you aren't using a weapon that requires more than 27 strength to 2-hand, and don't intend on relying heavily on 1-h movesets, don't go higher. Note that, great club users and murakomo users often aim for 28 points. It's only one point away from diminishing returns 2-handed and the 1-hand moveset is nice to have available, especially for murakmo (there, 1h>2h, imo).
    4. Dexterity. Casting speed for many important spells, pyros and miracles will increase as you bring dexterity from somewhere around 30 dex, all the way to 45 dex, where it apparently caps out. If you want to maximize your casting speed, consider taking dex to 45. The difference is notable in many circumstances.
    5. Int. These days, the most important breakpoints are 16 (GMW is 15 but dark bead is 16 and it's goooood), 32 (Pursuers and CMW), 44 (CSS), and in some instances, 50 (diminishing returns for enchanted weapons kicks in here).
    6. Faith. The reason for going over 40 for this is a little confusing for people, but basically it is because of the gains in spell effect achieved by reaching 50 faith. Indeed, many people believe that, depending on your needs, you should keep faith at either min, 12 or 14 (for arena builds where heal or great heal excerpt has a place), 16, 28, 30, 40 or 50 and seldom leave it in between those numbers because of how the talismans and magic adjustment ends up working. Interestingly, going from 30 to 40 faith has less of an impact on magic adjust than going from 40 to 50 (note: you change talismans after 40 but before 50 for maximum effect). As Aoineko points out, 44, 47 and 48 are also decent goals because they provide slightly higher magic adjust increases at those levels of faith than at other levels. 50 faith is also viable for divine weapons because that's where diminishing returns kick in (this was less relevant before patch 1.06 because elementals still outclassed 50-fth divine, iirc, same with enchanted&int.)
  • I mention this indirectly above, but it warrants emphasis: once you know what weapons, spells, etc. you want to use primarily, consider whether you want to "splash" stat points for add-ons. In Dark Souls, in many instances it is common to reach diminishing returns on the stat points that most directly correspond with what you want to use, get adequate attunement, reach 50 vitality and enough endurance to use the armor/get the stamina you want, and STILL have a few stat points to throw around. Even once you hit 40 or 45 vitality, splashing points can be a viable option. Here are a few popular areas points are "splashed":
    1. Strength. If you aren't using str primarily, you might still want to hit 16 (int builds/vit gouges) str, or at least 14, as this can expand the list of viable weapons greatly, giving you more backup weapons.
    2. Dexterity. 10 (clay/zweih/MLGS), 12 (rapier types), 14 (bss/shotel) or 16 dex (washing pole) are good goals. There are others, but the Dex weapons mentioned (12 dex and over) are all nice, faster weapons good for finishing people off and changing up your game.
    3. Intelligence. Splash to 14 for chameleon or 15 for greater magic weapon, or 16 for dark bead, and if you are getting 40 for MLGS, consider reaching 44 for CSS.
    4. Faith. Splash to 12 or 14 (arena builds-heal/great heal excerpt are too good to ignore), 14 (magic barrier/force), 16 (replenishment), 24 (great magic barrier), or even 28 (wrath of god) or 30 (sunlight blade/dmb).
      There are other common "splash" points, if you want to call them that, when people squeeze a point or two extra beyond what they intend to use primarily for a significant benefit, like the ability to 1-hand murakomo on a quality build (27=>28 str) or the ability to cast pyros and certain spells on a quality or dex build (40=>45 dex), or cast dark bead on a gmw buff build (16 int).
  • In case you're new, no, midroll/fatroll aren't generally considered viable options, so get your build's endurance up there and try to craft your build to avoid this. This isn't to say that this type of build could never work. both igbx and aneed have amusing videos up of a full-havel+wolf fatroller taking their opponents to town. But let me be clear: you will not beat good players fatrolling unless you're god, and midrolling is akin to fighting with a limp. Be prepared to make sacrifices to get fast roll or even flip roll (there are posts around here about why flip roll is still valuable, but it's an expensive ring these days and not for everyone).
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Advertisement

Re: Tools for making new builds/optimizing

Postby gwave82 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:33 am

Here is a program that calculates optimal armor combinations

http://www.mediafire.com/?8fx5nk4st9q01k9

I didn't create it.
gwave82
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:27 pm
Country: Germany (de)

Re: Tools for making new builds/optimizing

Postby Dellusions » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:05 am

Web based tool for the armor application:

http://www.raymondhill.net/darksouls/da ... r-calc.php
User avatar
Dellusions
 
Posts: 1155
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:18 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Dellusions / Dellusionss

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby mmghouse » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:59 am

I have edited the original post to create a more expansive discussion. My goal here is to prevent some common misunderstandings I see over and over here and offer a few starting points, aside from just throwing tools at people. As I mention in the new original post, comments are welcome, as are suggested additions or new tools.
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:29 am

At exactly 40 faith the DM talisman is one point higher then Canvas. There's also nothing wrong with going over 40 but not reaching 50 if you don't have enough points, in fact there are two break points between 40 and 50 of note. 44 and 47 provide slightly more MA for those points then the other values do and are therefor good points to push for if you can't afford to go all the way to 50.

You might also note in the section describing str that 28 allows the one handed use of several popular weapons.

And I would advise defining the abbreviation of AR before using it, rather then doing so later.
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Dellusions » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:43 am

Beat me to it :P

Good stuff in here, I was getting frustrated explaining the same thing over and over again, so now I can just link to a thread!
User avatar
Dellusions
 
Posts: 1155
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:18 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Dellusions / Dellusionss

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:48 am

So was I, I think you may have noticed I stopped explaining why and just gave the answer there for a while.

But, I'd already explained most of those things in my noobs leveling guide. (maybe not about AR split, but I think everything else).
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby mmghouse » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:59 pm

I meant to link the guide but couldn't find it. Post the link here and I'll add it. I'll make those changes tonight.
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:32 pm

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=14601&p=145736#p145736

I had it open in a tab so I could link to it quickly. ^^
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby mmghouse » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:51 am

Added. And made the changes. I'm sure it could be polished, but, as you might have guessed, aside from having the build tools all in one place, my biggest goal here is to answer common misconceptions build-makers have about spending stats and choosing weapon upgrade types for their interests. Plus, I always cringe a little when I see build proposals that disregard diminishing returns.
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:20 am

Yes, diminishing returns and split damage confusion and to a lesser extent super low end or vit happen a little too often.

I for one am quite glad you made this post, and hope a lot of people read it.
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby mmghouse » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:30 am

Added discussion on splashing points. And reorganized so people looking to use the tools won't have to dig through my nonsense to get there. Comments welcome, as always.
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:03 pm

mmghouse wrote:6. ...
76 poise armor setups:


Not just 76 anymore! :P

mmghouse wrote:Fourth tip: ...
Faith. Splash to ... There are other common "splash" points, if you want to call them that, when people squeeze a point or two extra beyond what they intend to use primarily for a significant benefit, like the ability to 1-hand murakomo on a quality build (27=>28 str) or the ability to cast pyros and certain spells on a quality or dex build (40=>45 dex).[/list]


This one has bothered me for a while, you're missing a return. That last bit isn't about faith, it's a general statement about splashing points.
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby mmghouse » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:54 pm

Thanks for the comments. I had to correct the link, yet as well.
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse

Re: Help making new builds--tools, links and a few tips

Postby Aoineko13 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:12 pm

Glad to help. ^^ .
Image
DeS AN : Aoineko13 : 125 Spellsword, 119 BBS, 140 ToBSwordRedeemed
Blue's DkS Builds: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15049
"oh its 1 hand, whatever....HOLY FUCK WHERES MY SC???" - Kabralius
Aoineko13
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:35 am
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: Aoineko13

Re: Buildmaking Tools and Tips

Postby mmghouse » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:39 am

Made some changes in light of 1.06 patch. I know I might come off a little harsh on midrolling, but I think a lot of people starting new builds start with the assumption that it should be fine, and as a general rule, that's not true at all. Played well, midrolling can work for some people, but it's a lot harder than a lot of people think it is. Nonetheless, I see a lot of midroll builds...
Image
PSN mmghouse
User avatar
mmghouse
Lore Scholar Overlord
Lore Scholar Overlord
 
Posts: 3902
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:38 pm
Location: Central Time
Country: United States (us)
PSN Name: mmghouse


Return to Character Builds, NPCs and Enemies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 2 guests

  • Advertisement