Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endings)

Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endings)

Postby Kahalachan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:36 am

I didn't see anything in the rules about this. Hopefully we can make a topic that says there will be tons of spoilers so we don't have to constantly use the spoiler tags for every single thing.

So if you're reading this and don't want anything spoiled, back out now!


OK no onto the topic where we try and build this awesome database that completes the story. Like Demon's Souls, much of Dark Souls' story is told passively through the item and equipment description, dialog, the world environment, and just about everything else but the commonly used cutscene.

We get an intro movie, a few cutscenes mostly to transition to a new area, and a short ending. That's it. The rest of the story we build ourselves.


Starting with the intro movie here are my speculations and questions............

1. The witch of Izalith and her daughters of chaos

-In the game we see that most things prefixed with chaos scale with humanity. So the witch and the daughters of chaos used techniques and magic based on humanity. There has to be something significant or interesting here.

We find several daughters in the game. Quelaag. Her secret sister. The chaos covenant requires humanity offerings. Again the humanity significance here. We also know of the pyromancer in Blighttown. And the non-friendly pyromancer in Lost Izalith before the boss. And most puzzling, the boss itself. Bed of Chaos.

The Bed of Chaos is a bug. Not the witch of Izalith. Not a daughter. It possesses this giant tree to do massive fire damage.

What's this about? The true form of the witch who possessed a humanoid? The witch's creation?

2. Gravelord Nito.

No questions or speculation about him. He seems to be this conglomerate of skeletons into one powerful entity.

3. Gwyn, Lord of Cinder

Nothing on my mind about him yet. You guys feel free to talk about him.

4. Seath the Scaleless

This is perhaps the most interesting boss for me.

Seath betrayed his own kind. During the intro maybe you think cause he was scaleless. Poor guy was an outcast. And yes, but I think being an outcast led him to have a romance with a non-dragon.

Crossbreed Priscilla is his daughter. The doll naturally belongs to Priscilla. Priscilla does a white breath type attack.

He betrayed his own kind and sided with the humanoid giants cause he found love there. This is why he was able to commit genocide against his own people. He was no longer one of them and even loved the giants.

5. The furtive pygmy

This is the player. The one who rises to such potential and is able to overthrow everyone else. You're small compared to the giants of the land. All humans are. You don't have your own covenant and make yourself known. You're furtive. Even elusively joining other covenants to get what it is you desire.

There is no person who plays Dark Souls and literally has this desire to worship Nito. They simply join a covenant for the benefits. This is exactly what the character furtive pygmy is doing. The furtive pygmy is so much like the player it's shocking.

The endings.......


1. Light the bonfire ending

You were duped by Frampt. He played the nice guy but he was in service to the giants all along. When you light the fire you are keeping the world in fire for longer. And if we remember the intro the power was gained from the flame. So we're just perpetuating the cycle.

2. Dark Lord

The primordial serpents bow down to you. Kaathe, once your mentor and guardian presumably also bows. Seems Frampt was the odd serpent out.

Why do the serpents want this? Want you to rise to be the dark lord?


The clans

1. The Astoras

Solaire worships the sun. Oscar is found in the undead asylum. Oscar is the one who helps drops the dungeon key via a corpse to you right? Anastacia is vowed to silence.

All three of these characters are extremely helpful in your quest. It seems the Astoras are the ones who want to help the player the most. They seem so devoted to the point it borders on religious devotion although the only known religion they seem to have is Solaire's sun worship.

2. The Catarinas

I think much is already said of the armor and the tragic ending between father and daughter.

3. The Thorolunds

Why does Petrus kill Rhea? How did the other 2 turn hollow? This is the most puzzling out of all the clans.


Connection to Demon's Souls

Everything here is giant. Is this entire game the 6th archstone?

We see Patches. This isn't Final Fantasy where there's a guy named Cid in every game. This is THE Patches. Same personality, shifty tactics, and everything.

Lodran is the Northern Lands mentioned in Dark Souls.

Here Patches hates clerics for some reason. Why?



Overall


I'm just writing stuff that pops in my head trying to make all the connections and interpretations I can. Asking tons of questions. I could go on even more cause this world is just huge! With so much to explore, so much to do, there is so much story for us to interpret.

Hopefully others join me in this brainstorming and we can piece together some good lore based on in-game evidence. It's also fun to have our own spins and interpretations of the more ambiguous areas of the game.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Hashmal » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:06 am

I can chime in with a few of my observations that I'm not sure you've seen yet.

Kahalachan wrote:1. The witch of Izalith and her daughters of chaos


Quelaana requests, once you've obtained the Lordvessel and placed it on the altar, that you kill her mother and sisters - all of whom seem to have become the Bed of Chaos. She rewards you with a Pyromancy once you've done this.

She fills you in a bit - that the Witches of Izalith (all of whom seem to be tight knit or blood-related as Quelaana refers to them as her sisters) tried to control a flame that was just too powerful for them. They dabbled in magics they didn't fully understand and, as a result, were consumed by those same powers. It seems they did a Dragonball Z type of fusion and became the Bed of Chaos.

The big question mark is the identity of the Hollow Witch outside of the Bed of Chaos encounter. Originally I thought it to be Quelaana, yet when you kill this Hollow, Quelaana is still there (also, Quelaana has different attacks should you aggro her).

So, really, the Witches of Izalith are just a story of dabbling in what you shouldn't and paying an awful price for it. Once proud pyromancers, they've now been reduced to mindless beings of pure chaos.

Makes you wonder what the Ceaseless Discharge is, eh? One of their magical experiments?

Kahalachan wrote:3. Gwyn, Lord of Cinder

Nothing on my mind about him yet. You guys feel free to talk about him.


For a big bad guy, I don't think that Gwyn really has all that much story. He originally linked the fire and ensconced himself as demi-god/ruler of the world. He's spoken of reverentially by the Solaire - unless the Solaire is a lone nutter, we can safely assume that Gwyn is worshiped elsewhere.

However, Kaathe's expository and Gwyndolin/Gwenevyre's interactions show us that the power of Gwyn is a veneer: his power has long since faded (burned out, if you will) and he's now just an old megalomaniac holding on desperately to delusions of godhood. Dark Anor Londo is the "true" state of the area - an empty, desolate land devoid of light.

I don't really feel like there's much to him. He's an old king past his prime.

Kahalachan wrote:4. Seath the Scaleless

This is perhaps the most interesting boss for me.

Seath betrayed his own kind. During the intro maybe you think cause he was scaleless. Poor guy was an outcast. And yes, but I think being an outcast led him to have a romance with a non-dragon.

Crossbreed Priscilla is his daughter. The doll naturally belongs to Priscilla. Priscilla does a white breath type attack.

He betrayed his own kind and sided with the humanoid giants cause he found love there. This is why he was able to commit genocide against his own people. He was no longer one of them and even loved the giants.


An interesting counterpoint to that is elsewhere on this forum. One poster linked the zombie dragon to Priscilla. Perhaps that decayed corpse is her father? She drug him in after the dragons died and she feared reprisal from Gwyn for being a half breed?

Kahalachan wrote:5. The furtive pygmy

This is the player. The one who rises to such potential and is able to overthrow everyone else. You're small compared to the giants of the land. All humans are. You don't have your own covenant and make yourself known. You're furtive. Even elusively joining other covenants to get what it is you desire.

There is no person who plays Dark Souls and literally has this desire to worship Nito. They simply join a covenant for the benefits. This is exactly what the character furtive pygmy is doing. The furtive pygmy is so much like the player it's shocking.


Kaathe refers to the player's "progenitor" and, through his dialogue, makes it pretty clear that the furtive pygmy was the father of mankind. This is the only known in-game reference to the pygmy.

Kahalachan wrote:2. Dark Lord

The primordial serpents bow down to you. Kaathe, once your mentor and guardian presumably also bows. Seems Frampt was the odd serpent out.

Why do the serpents want this? Want you to rise to be the dark lord?


Perhaps they want the dragons to rise again. There is still one - perhaps there can be more now that the age of fire has passed?

Kahalachan wrote:Connection to Demon's Souls

Everything here is giant. Is this entire game the 6th archstone?

We see Patches. This isn't Final Fantasy where there's a guy named Cid in every game. This is THE Patches. Same personality, shifty tactics, and everything.

Lodran is the Northern Lands mentioned in Dark Souls.

Here Patches hates clerics for some reason. Why?


I've heard this theory before. Perhaps it is, but probably not. The archstones in Demon's Souls connected disparate parts of an entire world. The world of Lodran is markedly different - no mention of Boletaria in any description or text, no mention of demon invasions (if you'll remember, the demons did a real number to the land of the giants), no clear link beyond Patches to the original game. The clerics use different benedictions and seem to name their god differently. None of the nation names are the same.

I feel like Patches' inclusion in the game was more for fan service than anything else and a nod to Demon's Souls players. Perhaps he and Urbain didn't get along so well, so now he hates clerics? Who knows.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Tarrick » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:19 am

Kahalachan wrote:1. The witch of Izalith and her daughters of chaos

-In the game we see that most things prefixed with chaos scale with humanity. So the witch and the daughters of chaos used techniques and magic based on humanity. There has to be something significant or interesting here.

We find several daughters in the game. Quelaag. Her secret sister. The chaos covenant requires humanity offerings. Again the humanity significance here. We also know of the pyromancer in Blighttown. And the non-friendly pyromancer in Lost Izalith before the boss. And most puzzling, the boss itself. Bed of Chaos.

The Bed of Chaos is a bug. Not the witch of Izalith. Not a daughter. It possesses this giant tree to do massive fire damage.

What's this about? The true form of the witch who possessed a humanoid? The witch's creation?

From the Lord Soul:
Soul of the Bed of Chaos and the mother of demons. This lord soul was found at the dawn of the Age of Fire.

The Witch of Izalith attempted to duplicate the First Flame from a soul, but instead created a distorted being of Chaos and Fire. Its power formed a bed of life which would become the source of all demons.

I think the use of humanity in Chaos spells and effects is simply the implementation of demonic power drawing upon life energy.

Kahalachan wrote:3. The Thorolunds

Why does Petrus kill Rhea? How did the other 2 turn hollow? This is the most puzzling out of all the clans.

Petrus went down with Rhea and the others, but they were tricked by Patches, much like the player. At some point, perhaps before meeting Patches, Petrus became afraid and abandoned the others and ran back up to the surface, leaving the others to his fate. Or perhaps he made a deal with Patches? Either way, he doesn't want Rhea to tell anyone that he abandoned her.
Kahalachan wrote:Connection to Demon's Souls

Everything here is giant. Is this entire game the 6th archstone?

We see Patches. This isn't Final Fantasy where there's a guy named Cid in every game. This is THE Patches. Same personality, shifty tactics, and everything.

Lodran is the Northern Lands mentioned in Dark Souls.

Here Patches hates clerics for some reason. Why?

I don't understand how this always comes up. The sixth archstone was lost to the fog and all life extinguished. That's why it was broken. That is where you go at the end to meet the demon; the demon is what perpetuates the fog. I thought that was fairly clear in game, personally.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Auxilium » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:45 am

I think the most interesting lore from the game is the Furtive Pygmy and Gwyn.

Gwyn, found one of the Soul of Lords, which was the first flame (Assumption). While the Furtive Pygmy found a soul "unique" from the others, that being the Dark Soul. The Pygmy, waited for Gwyn's flame to fade, which it did over time, thus ushering in the Age of Dark/Age of Humans. Gwyn feared the humans and the Dark Lord that would one day rise from among them and gave himself to the first flame to keep the Age of Fire going, postponing the Age of Dark.

All this was told by Kaathe.
'
The Pygmy, which is pretty much mankind's ancestor and progenitor, specifically waited for Gwyn's flame to fade and seems to be the only other holder of a Soul of Lords to not follow Gwyn's leadership. Possibly because Gwyn didn't know about or forgot about the Pygmy, which is why they said the "ever forgetful pygmy"


As for Nito, he was the first of the Dead. So being the first he oversees death and so forth. I forgot exactly where I read that. I guess he's in some relation to Hades in Greek mythology.

Seath, I think he betrayed his kin because he was jealous. Just from what I've heard/read, he was not immortal like the other dragons and wanted to conduct research on the scales of immortality, which he did after Gwyn and co overthrew the dragons, which ended up driving him insane.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:52 am

[\quote]
I don't understand how this always comes up. The sixth archstone was lost to the fog and all life extinguished. That's why it was broken. That is where you go at the end to meet the demon; the demon is what perpetuates the fog. I thought that was fairly clear in game, personally.[/quote]


The broken archstone in demons souls isn't the endgame - it was just an area that was completely overrun by demons as already mentioned. You confront the old one at a point beneath the nexus, where it lives, not in the Land of the Giants.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby coli » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:58 am

Tarrick wrote:Petrus went down with Rhea and the others, but they were tricked by Patches, much like the player. At some point, perhaps before meeting Patches, Petrus became afraid and abandoned the others and ran back up to the surface, leaving the others to his fate. Or perhaps he made a deal with Patches? Either way, he doesn't want Rhea to tell anyone that he abandoned her.

This sounds plausible. He also sounded kind of malicious, when talking about how she's nothing without her title, and he sounded all rape-y talking about someone could do anything they wanted to her. It sort of seems like he's bitter, maybe he didn't have a choice but to protect her so he's pissed off.


Tarrick wrote:The sixth archstone was lost to the fog and all life extinguished. That's why it was broken. That is where you go at the end to meet the demon; the demon is what perpetuates the fog. I thought that was fairly clear in game, personally.

I thought you go below the Nexus at the end of the game?
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:10 pm

I do not know much anything of most of the characters met in this game.
I do know the kingsfield story lines have always all been intertwined.

Here is information I do have however:

Seath the scaleless, is not named "Seath" at all. Nor did he have a romance with anyone. he is an impostor, who impersonated the real Seath in order to gain followers. He possessed the body of a man named King Alfred Forester in a continent called Verdite. After being banished from that place his whereabouts were unknown until now.
He is not a real dragon, but has always wanted to be.

As for this world in general, it is a very large chunk of land, that was removed from planet earth using a type of water magic called fog. Boletaria was removed the same way, as were a few other places. By a man named Kal Fargus. Who was acting under the orders of a giant bird known as the Blue Phoenix. Who essentially was on the same mission as the Seath Impostor: "to become a god/be in unchallenged position of power". Her campaign involved identifying other "gods" who could be strong enough to pose a threat, and ordering Kal Fargus, (A.K.A. The Icewarrior of Brandt) to "remove" said threat. This would include the "Old One", for which the Icewarrior built a large tomb known as the "Ice Shrine" to encase this god, and then scoop out this large chunk of land to let it "float out into space/fade away from existence".
The locals in Boletaria of course came to know the Ice Shrine as "The Nexxus".


You have to think of the people in Boletaria, and the people in this land, to be like the people in silent hill. These people have no idea that they are disconnected from the rest of the world and slowly fading out of existence. They are all going on with their destinies, prophecies, religions and daily lives. They are like rats on a large abandoned slowly sinking ship. Eating their chese and mating and running around, having no idea whats going on.

The "Fog" is like a select tool in photoshop with a delayed effect when you hit "edit-cut".

That is all that I can offer to add for you. I do not know any of these new people and places.
There is certainly a moonlight sword here, fashioned after a soldiers sword like a dragon knight. But it is fake, made by the impostor, not by Seath herself. and thus power based on human magic, not faith.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Auxilium » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:07 pm

ganador13 wrote:Seath the scaleless, is not named "Seath" at all. Nor did he have a romance with anyone. he is an impostor, who impersonated the real Seath in order to gain followers. He possessed the body of a man named King Alfred Forester in a continent called Verdite. After being banished from that place his whereabouts were unknown until now.
He is not a real dragon, but has always wanted to be.


Where did you get this from? The game doesn't state this anywhere.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby jonnypho » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:35 pm

He mentions this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_Field_(series)

Wonder if they share lore
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:39 pm

@Auxilium, Johnnypho.

Yes, they do indeed share lore. As have any of From's similar flavored titles.
I've been a "trekky" for their work since the first Kingsfield when PS1 was new.
I also have their dark side special collection and head eater books.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, are to KF, in the way "The Amazing Ewok Adventure" is to Star Wars.
Not part of the main event, but the same universe :)
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Kahalachan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:06 pm

Yeah about Petrus escaping that sounds like the best idea.

We know Patches will kill any cleric he meets. So after Petrus escaped he didn't run into Patches at all. Otherwise they would've fought to the death.

Petrus ran like a coward and didn't want anyone to know.

If Seath didn't betray for love like I'm guessing, then it will raise the question of Priscilla's parents still.

And for some reason I must've missed the description of the Bed of Chaos soul. It is an annoying boss so I was glad to be done with it and forgot to read the description.

So that's interesting we almost have the Witch's lore down.

Keep 'em coming, this is good stuff. :gp:
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:51 pm

I'm sorry, I have a lot of info but its all pertaining to the main story. I don't know anything else about the DKS spinoff.

I must admit I've never even entered the painted world or Beaten the ceaseless discharge yet. I believe those are the last two places I haven't ventured.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Galkin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:44 pm

Primordial serpents

Primordial: first created or developed, existing in or persisting from the beginning

So, in other words primordial serpents are the first beings to exist. Much older than the dragons or the lords. Was awaiting the flame to die off a decision of the pygmy, or a suggestion by Kaathe?

From where do these serpents come from? In the dark lord ending, all the serpents come from the abyss: pure darkness; so those this mean the prefer the darkness of nothingness, rather the the flames? Also note, they can be said to be the source of the darkwraiths, seeing as Kaathe gives you their power. And Ingward stated "Darkwraiths are the enemy of man and anything with a soul", so it doesn't sound like the primordial serpents have good intentions for mankind.

When Kaathe said "Frampt lost his senses, and befriended Gwyn" did he mean "He lost his sense of what is right" or "He lost his sense of what he truly is"? Was Frampt really tricking you into helping Gwyn "resist nature's course", or trying to stop you from making the mistake of the furtive pygmy?

Kaathe mentions Gwyn is resisting nature's course. But, what IS nature's course? As a being that appears to help take life, and lives in utter darkness; it appears that his point of view on nature's course is: "Everything shall -at some point- disappear, and in the end; dark will remain". Doesn't sound something a hero would want. Normally, a hero wants for life to live on.

I'm not saying Kaathe lied to you, I honestly believe he was telling you the truth. But, remember, this is the truth of a being who -apparently- would need to ask Oswald to absolve his sins every minute for all the he has allowed the darkwraiths to do.

The dark lord, for which the primordial serpents bow down to, is a tool. They will bow down to you, but, in the end, you will eventually follows nature's course and die. By the serpent's belief, everything else will follow. They do indeed serve their dark lord, because you are indeed a lord, who will slowly lead the world to extinction eventually. If not you, your successor. If not your successor, then your successor's successor.

Frampt was different. He decided to help the age of fire continue. As a primordial serpent, he has Kaathe's knowledge, and as well knows what the age of dark brings.

Age of Dark = Age of man

Its what Kaathe says. However, as a being who existed since the beginning, he should know how things will end. At some point in the age of man, humanity will try to resist nature's course. Kaathe (Your most likely adviser) will advise you to keep things in check (Like how Gwyndolin tries in the age of fire) and allow nature's course to continue.

Do note one thing: The darksign. It didn't appear until after the age of fire was coming to an end. So, is the age of dark a source of the darksign?

Oh yes, one last thing: "...the undead are corralled and led to the north, were they are to await the end of the world" "...This is your fate". The undead, marked with the darksign -the sign of the age of dark-, have to await the end of the world. Apparently, the coming of the age of dark means the end of the world.

Your fate is the same. Kaathe says you're to become the dark lord and continue on to the age of dark. During your rule, you will await the end of the world. Your fate is to become the dark lord, not to succeed Gwyn as cinder.

Frampt lies to you in hopes of changing your fate. Claiming you're to succeed Gwyn, and link the fire (Which is almost running out). While you shall burn for a long time, he believes it is a sacrifice to be made; to end the dark sign and allow the world to continue.

Of course, this is all just speculation. Maybe it is just how we all though and the dark lord is the hero.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:02 am

Glad to see one thing about the KF universe hasn't changed; Right and wrong, and who is a hero, are all based heavily on point of view. Religion. Faction. Covenant. Whatever people want to call it these days ;)
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby cronotis » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:43 am

A few off the wall things come to mind.

-The mother/child statue in the Painted World's courtyard (the one with the phalanxes)
- Another one by the Sunlight Alter bonfire.
The one in the Painted World at least seems like it could be significant, as it's essential to gain access to Priscilla.
Some sort of Mary/Jesus thing?

-Painted World
- Kaathe refers to the Kiln of the First Flame as a prison, could the Painted World be a prison for Priscilla as well?
- King Jeremiah. King of what? Relation to Priscilla?
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby t0xic-crusader » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:35 pm

Galkin wrote:Primordial serpents
Your fate is the same. Kaathe says you're to become the dark lord and continue on to the age of dark. During your rule, you will await the end of the world. Your fate is to become the dark lord, not to succeed Gwyn as cinder.

Frampt lies to you in hopes of changing your fate. Claiming you're to succeed Gwyn, and link the fire (Which is almost running out). While you shall burn for a long time, he believes it is a sacrifice to be made; to end the dark sign and allow the world to continue.

Of course, this is all just speculation. Maybe it is just how we all though and the dark lord is the hero.


I completely agree with the entirety of this post (cut a bit out so it wouldn't waste space here) however there is one small point I have to take issue with.

Nowhere is it actually stated that linking the fire is a 'sacrifice' on the player character's part. You would only believe this idea if you so fully believed in what Kaathe was telling you...and personally I dont. One of the ideas of the 'To Link The Fire' ending is that you are inheriting the flame from Gwyn. Gwyn linked the fire himself before, and still has a physical form. If he didn't have a physical form after linking the fire....well then there wouldn't have been a final boss fight.

Also, looking closely during this ending, when the PC sets the fire alight and is starting to be surrounded by the fire, they can not seen in any visible pain....simply just staring at themselves alight. It's very possible that you were not reduced to cinder because you were the one who himself linked the fire. When Gwyn originally went to link the fire....some of his knights also followed him. However because they themselves did not become a part of the fire and simply observed....they were reduced to naught but ash/dust.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Chaosagent » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:04 am

This is about the connection with Demon's Souls and Dark Souls.

Now most people say that the 6th archstone got fixed or whatever and that's how Patches got over to here, but what if Boltaria and Stonefang and all the places from Demon's Souls exist in this world. What if Patches deiced to travel away from the Nexus to fool more people. It could be in another part of the world. Since we also know about the other places like Verhirm and those places. But again that brings the question why those places in Demon's Souls never mention if they exist in this world.

Just an thought.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby PorkSoda » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:45 pm

just a question, is either ending possible and not dependent on whether you followed frampt or kaathe?

also I'm a little confused. frampt talked about succeeding gwyn and linking the fire I think, but when I beat gwyn I couldn't figure out what to do and left and ended up becoming the dark lord, which seems to be what kaathe wanted.

Am I mixed up?
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby t0xic-crusader » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:10 pm

PorkSoda wrote:just a question, is either ending possible and not dependent on whether you followed frampt or kaathe?

also I'm a little confused. frampt talked about succeeding gwyn and linking the fire I think, but when I beat gwyn I couldn't figure out what to do and left and ended up becoming the dark lord, which seems to be what kaathe wanted.

Am I mixed up?

The ending is only dependable on whether after killing Gwyn you link the fire or walk out and leave it. All what Frampt and Kaathe do is offer differing story information....interacting with either of them wont cut you off from getting one ending or the other.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Fylus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:22 pm

I absolutely love how deep the story to this game is. I feel that it could be easily compared to Greek or Nordic Mythology. You only have to know as much about it as you want to, yet if you want it to be a massivly complicated epic, its there for you.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby qwertyigloo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:41 pm

Just a suggestion...

What about Demon Firesage?
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Mundane » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:20 pm

Thought it was already established that the player isn't the Pygmy. For starters, why would you be sent to the asylum from the beginning after becoming undead and all? Surely if you were Pygmy you'd already be in the places where the game takes place. Hell at least you wouldn't have been exiled to the asylum after turning undead because you weren't even human to begin with.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:35 pm

Boletaria and Lordran are as connected as Massachusetts and Pennsylvania.
Two separate lands both floating off into nothingness taken away by the fog. The idea that the archstone leading to the land of the giants was somehow used would not be plausible considering there is no way for these two places to connect, just as someone on one island cannot walk across water to the other. However in this case, the magic used for the archstone is technically a type of water magic, being that the archstone itself is part of the ice shrine (nexxus).
And both this shrine and the fog that stole these lands from earth are creations of the same man.

It is somewhat like saying a special tank was designed to be indestructible by any gun, but a special gun was designed that can destroy any tank. Both made by the same company. A little bit of a confusing paradox.

Atop this, The archstone itself leads to the land of the giants. Which obviously would refer to Lordran. A land predominated by the giants, a royal family of giants, and the majority of the lands upper class lifestyle being designed around the giants. Leaving any of the "small people" like us to be peasants in that land.

Boletaria would be a different land, predominated by the "small people", where we are the ones in charge.

Patches using the archstone somehow, to get to Lordran? plausible. The two places being the same chunk of land? definitely not. And keep in mind these are not the only two places that were scooped away from the earth by the fog.
There was an un-named number mentioned in old KF lore. But definitely more than 2.
The Ice Warrior was taken to trial and punished for a reason.

Today we have America, Germany, England, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, Russia.. Keep counting. There are about 15 major names you could pull off the top of your head.
If not for the Ice Warrior there would have been about 30.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Zaganna » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:17 pm

Seriously.....how could you think that Demons Soul and Dark Soul could be in the same Universe?

Maeby we should remember some things:
In demon Soul...It's all about Souls...
You are trapped in a nexus...where half-immortal being (the monumental) keeping the frabric of reality. Until the die, and the Ancient lures he's demon army (summoned by the King) into Bolataria. The first kingdom covered by the fog.
Soul Art is almost EVRYTHING in that realm...you become stronger (level up), you use the Soul of Demon for create new weapons or spells.
So powerfull that there's a secret organization who plans to kill all who works with Souls and the player too (mephistole). And the Ancient was created to poison the word.

In Dark Soul...evreything is for the FLAME.
An ancient past, with dragons...and Lord who fought them and became God for all (not only for Anor Londo...or New Londo...). Demon are the twisted son's of the Bed of Chaos, and they are all almost linked to the fire element. Souls of demon is just a "side" of the plot. It's all about lightling bonfire and the First Flame.

Both Universe just CAN'T be together in once.
And if you're asking why Patches is in this game, it's simple: It's Called "Easter Egg".
Authors just wanted to put a character from Demon Soul to Dark Soul...just because they liked him!
(Honestly I'm asking why....there where a lot of characters much more usefull than him. "Yo hi Patches!...Ooooooooh the false treasure trick again...How could I immagine it?")
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Mundane » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:34 pm

Uh...



Regarding that, I never go so far as to believing things like that are connected, and then trying to justify them. They're just two different games with two different stories. Stuff like Patches being in Dark Souls too... that's just the developers having fun. The similarities are just a product of FROM trying to keep the winning Demon's Souls formula while trying to make a new, refreshing game.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby ganador13 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:06 pm

"Easter Egg" is a word FROM has never used. Every game they have made with this "flavor" has been connected.
As for "Ancient pasts" and so on, don't forget that in every land ever made in the KF storylines, every culture has it's own belief, it's own religions, and it's own written point of view on history.
The "Old One" is just another one of the long list of "god's" who came uninvited, to reap the benefits of the planet created by Seath and Guyra.

Like the Blue Phoenix, The Great Gryphon Shaddam, The Star dragon, and so on.

And due to being imprisoned in the ice shrine aka nexxus, the "old Ones" soul reaping method was forced to resort to recruiting an avatar. For example King Alant.

It is the belief of these people that the fabric of the whole world is held together by monumentals. And keep in mind these peoples concept of the "whole world" is different than yours. You and I are aware that the world does not end after the coast and the neighboring islands. Different cultures each have their own knowledge and library. For example, a primitive culture in some south american society believing the entire world was created by an ancient elephant diety, who was opposed by a quetzacoatle flying snake with wings. And another culture from europe believing the world was created by a single male diety who had a son that sacraficed himself for the sins of mankind. These two cultures exist in the same universe ;)
The KF storylines have always been about the underlying subject of "point of view" and both Seath and Guyra either allowing people to go on with all their own ideas, or attempting to convince them of how things really are.

The "Soul Arts" are a part of human culture that was lost due to the actions of Kal Fargus. The people inventing and living with these things having been removed from the planet and therefore not being able to share and teach this to others. Luckily we haven't lost things much more wide spread like sewing, just to paint an example.
(a character named Necron being the only technical exception to the soul arts being totally lost. But this having been taught to him by Guyra, making him the last living human who had this particular skill)

I realize this is alot to take in. but is it not fan made fabrication. Though I can understand how people who only got on the boat a couple years ago for Demons Souls, as opposed to being here since the beginning of the ride, may have a difficult time understanding.

Lets just say that Star trek Voyager isn't the end all be all. Trust me friend there was a whole lot more goin on before that. Back in the 60s. And they are indeed connected. Take my word for it ;)
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Shadow Legion » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:45 am

Chaos Witches

Of the eight witches about 5 can be account for:

Quelagg
Egg Princess (Quelaan?)
Quelana
Hollow witch in Izalith
Bed of Chaos ("The Witch of Izalith")

Speculation:
1 dead buried near the Ceaseless Discharge
the body on the grave holds the same clothes that Quelana and the Hollow Witch wear.


2 fused together in the bed of chaos
The fact that you have to essentially kill 3 parts of the bed of chaos each of which are clearly being suppressed before your arrival at the bed of chaos.


Also there was a really good thread on gamefaqs that put a lot of the plot together already.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606312-d ... s/60853236

They've put some really good stuff together like the fact that Soltaire is the Gwyn's first born. Anyone have any idea what weapon his statue in the sunlight altar was holding. It looked sort of like spear or maybe a halberd maybe even a great sword? To bad it's not in the game it looks like it would have been bad-ass.
Last edited by Shadow Legion on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Zaganna » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:44 am

ganador13 wrote:"Easter Egg" is a word FROM has never used.
if you go in this way...i just remembered that a few months before the realese, FROM actually told that DkS has nothing to do with DeS.

End of speculation of story.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Chaosagent » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:49 am

Zaganna wrote:
ganador13 wrote:"Easter Egg" is a word FROM has never used.
if you go in this way...i just remembered that a few months before the realese, FROM actually told that DkS has nothing to do with DeS.

End of speculation of story.

They have to say that you know right.
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Re: Dark Souls Lore Speculation (Massive Spoilers Both Endin

Postby Drahcir » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:03 am

Mundane wrote:Thought it was already established that the player isn't the Pygmy. For starters, why would you be sent to the asylum from the beginning after becoming undead and all? Surely if you were Pygmy you'd already be in the places where the game takes place. Hell at least you wouldn't have been exiled to the asylum after turning undead because you weren't even human to begin with.

Well, what some people speculated was that the pygmy lost his memories and the pendant recovered them.Also it is said that humans came from the pygmy, so the pygmy was pretty close to a human if you ask me. :)
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